Spree wont run without filter myth

[doug9694]

I am sure you have been told this over and over again. I pulled out a Spree that has been outside under a thick plastic tarp for ten years to check
spark on a coil of a Chinese 150. Since the engine had some compression and real blue spark I decided to see if it would run. No filter and kick start only.
It finally did start after priming. When it is warmed up it restarts with one or two kicks and goes 20mph on grass for about 5 minutes. then it bogs to 5 mph
until it cools. Later or the next day it is again hard to start cold then runs the 5 minutes and bogs. I think it is doing a soft seize. Still restarts one or two kicks.
And all without a filter! In my experience as soon as I, or someone, makes a bold statement it is a lot of times proven not to be so.

This quote from a locked post. Had to do this new post because of the locked post.
"As you all know, having an air filter in place is *critical* to the proper running of the Honda Spree. The engine literally won't run without it in place."
BTW: The poster is selling air filters.

I am not suggesting to run without a filter, if you can get yours to run at all without, just saying, don't believe everything you hear or read.
Another myth common on the net is that all CT70's are auto clutch. I have a CT70 HE-, engine only, that has a manual clutch. Also remember
back in the 90's riding one I repaired and resold that was manual. Investigating says "H" are 4 speed manual and "E" is 12 volt on later engines ?
220920 build #

Will not having the filter have any effect on over heating? Some say having it draws more gas into the cyl. cooling it.
Before throwing $$$ at something that is trash, I like to get it running and then maybe some $.

[motormike]

Greetings and welcome doug9694.
The quote you are addressing is from noiseguy, regarding air filter in Spree.
While you take the quote in strictly literal sense, I can say confidently that
noiseguy would agree with your claim that Spree will "run" with the filter missing.
However, the implication is that Spree will not run properly minus the filter.
Likewise, Spree will suffer damaging results when ran minus filter, as you have described.
High cylinder temps are eminent and seize of piston likely.
By no means was the statement intended to convince readers to buy air filters from him.
i see you have many years claimed of experience, and we are always pleased to have the benefit of your knowledge.
Your claim of "myth" was improperly posted in the performance technical column, and has been moved the general column.
I feel your suggestion of noiseguys statement being myth as a means of stimulating filter sales is very cheeky and insulting, especially considering your newbie status of one weeks membership here.

[benji]

Ya.... I wouldn't run w/o it unless you got some seriously big carb and jet, and it won't run right then. I ran a bell mouth and no filter on my bbk and it ran(erratically, but fast and lean haha) until it sucked a loose nut into the carb throat. Even if it's not too lean to run (soft-seize city, means you'll be buying a Lotta pistons n such), the filter is also there to FILTER OUT DEBRIS which is dangerous to the inner workings of the motor, and you might wanna think about that w your grass running spree. Off road scoots are fun but live a hard dirty life.

[benji]

Also, I can quote a post where he says filter and plug sales pay for this site and that's about it, and we don't really have advertising here cuz of it (besides some vendors here n there) so I'd buy one just cuz, I haven't tho. I'm gonna go look to see if he's got a spark plug for me...

[eclark5483]

**sigh**

Think I'll trust the opinion of the Engineers and Technicians that I work with at Polaris Industries who get paid the 6 figure salaries to know what everybody only hypothesizes about. All of them I talked to said the air filter is needed, and explained exactly why. I'd certainly trust their expertise over anybody else on this website. Don't care if it's the site owner, or someone claiming to have experience with motorcycles, or someone who owns 1,000 Sprees. I'd much rather listen to the advice of the guys who designed the Thunderstroke 111 that goes into the Indian motorcycles we build. I've seen posts on here about guys complaining about overheating on their BBK, can't get the carb tuned just right and all kinds of assorted issues. Not that I am bragging, but mine runs absolutely perfect, no heat problems, no carb problems, no gear issues... nothing. I take none of the credit, I owe it all to the experts at work who guided me through it all. With that being said, you can insinuate noiseguys motives all you like. You can brag all you want about what you think you know. But I really don't think you are in a position to myth bust anything considering you report problems trying to run a scooter in a condition that you claim was a myth in the first place.

Code: Select all

It finally did start after priming. When it is warmed up it restarts with one or two kicks and goes 20mph on grass for about 5 minutes. then it bogs to 5 mph
until it cools. Later or the next day it is again hard to start cold then runs the 5 minutes and bogs. I think it is doing a soft seize. Still restarts one or two kicks.

I'm sorry, but that REALLY, REALLY, makes one look like a complete idiot.

[Wheelman-111]

Greetings:

It's really not all that hard to understand. We should know that the engine's piston upstroke creates suction in the crankcase, whose only relief is through the case port where the reeds live. (Air leaks excepted...) That suction - or Negative Pressure - makes its way back through the carburetor, and specifically the hourglass-shaped narrowing of its Venturi. This is where the jets live. The narrowing increases the negative pressure locally, sucking a little mist of fuel up from the bowl through the jets. Even with the carb mouth open - no filter or air box - the suction does indeed draw fuel into the air stream like sipping from a tiny straw. That straw is SUPER-tiny in the case of the Spree.

But the engineers and engine tuning specialists at Honda-san's factory designed the size of both of those jets knowing that the Spree's carb was bolted by a rubber tube to an airbox with smallish inlet holes. This has the effect of increasing the overall negative pressure along the intake tract. With this even higher suction, more fuel is drawn through the jet orifices, and the calculations led to a ratio correct for long-term reliable running and temperature stability. Take that extra suction away by removing the box and/or installing a pod filter, and you're left with too little fuel, burning much hotter than the cooling system can handle, rising temperatures and eventual seizure of the top end. UNLESS you can find a way to increase the size of the orifices of the jets. On PA carbs, a bigger main is easy enough to install, but the Pilot hole size isn't easily altered.

[Wheelman-111]

Greetings:

Quoth hssffc:

so the engineers said you need a filter right? for debris right?

The assertions you present are thought-provoking, but No, wrong. The filter removes fine airborn silicate particles, of course, to minimize abrasion damage. But the Spree's intake Assembly is more than just a filter. The box inlet holes are small, and when the engine starts pulling air out of the box, air can't flow in as fast as the engine empties it. It's that Negative Pressure (that Honda's design assumes is present) which draws more fuel from the bowl at every engine RPM. Also, Spree 2-stroke isn't an understressed, low-revving Briggs and Stratton tiller motor.

Harley-Davidson stock airboxes also feature a similar small inlet opening. Remember, it's the Stock bike that the EPA receives for fuel mileage, noise and Emissions testing. To uncork a bit more power after the sale, they sell a Screamin' Eagle intake kit for its V-twin engines. Installing one on an older carbureted bike required an upjet of the pilot and main, otherwise the engines were prone to overheat to the point of cooking the intake manifold spacers and causing air leaks. Don't ask how I know. Later fuel-injected bikes requires a re-flash of the Engine Control Module, to richen the mixture to match the increased intake air flow, for the same reason. You can look this up.

I put in my topic that which is relevant. Please carefully consider your response, if you wish to respond, before typing.

[eclark5483]

"Those are yes men answers" is a rebuttal? Saying "WELL THIS WORKS ON AN ELITE" is a rebuttal? Last I checked, a Spree is not an elite. You saying the reed size and intake difference makes no difference? Well *, why am I even bothering trying to hunt down an SB50 reed and cage then?

And yes, the engineers I work with are doing mainly 4 strokes, but what, do you think their expertise and training ends at just 4 stroke engines? These are Polaris guys, we absolutely compete with Honda, Harley, Yamaha, Suzuki, etc. They cover a huge range of power sports vehicles. Am I to believe the guys who are competing with Honda would steer me wrong? Are they making "yes men" arguments too? As explained to me by the boys, the filter acts as a kind of back pressure and is tuned (I'm probably wording this wrong, but don't argue semantics) to work with the fuel flow. Removing it creates too little vacuum back pressure? Don't remember their exact words, but it was very similar to what Wheelman was saying. If you wanna say the engineers are also wrong, then I urge you to come apply. They have several openings and pay well. I'm sure they could use your knowledge.

http://applytopolaris.com/
or
http://www.polaris.com/en-us/careers

[benji]

Am I a paid yes-man too? I need my check, then....

It was me who had the nut get sucked into the carb not wheelman. Wheelmans answer was better and more in-depth tho, and comes from experience. You, sir, come off like an * when you suggest people are getting paid to push on some sort of filter conspiracy.

Btw, if it's soft-seizeing when it's running, it's technically not running just waiting to die completely.

[1man8scoots]

I'm placing a bet Doug is hssfretard. What a jack *.

[noiseguy]

I am sure you have been told this over and over again. I pulled out a Spree that has been outside under a thick plastic tarp for ten years to check
spark on a coil of a Chinese 150...

Etc.

What year Spree. I've gotten them to start without the filter in place, but they wouldn't "run." My definition of running is holding an idle and accelerating up to some speed with power. I've heard certain years will, but not the common ones.

As for what you consider "running," You're soft seizing your motor... damaging it. To save a few bucks on a filter you could buy from your Honda dealer, or here, or where ever.

[Meloshameless]

My brain is spinning after reading this whole thread, lol. Some one went to costco and bought a whole case of haterade.....

[wwolvert]

I don't under stand why people want to run a stock bike with out an air filter any ways it's point less and they cost like five dollars, I guess it gives people some thing to argue about tho

[Ultraliner]

Wow... Just wow!!

The main conclusion one can draw from this thread is that if you run your 10 year not run grass beater scoot with no air filter it'll "run fine" for about 5 mins, overheat, soft seize and then maybe restart later in the day when it's had time to cool down.

The fact that this is occuring to your scooter clearly identifies there is an issue. One of the most obvious issues identified by yourself is your lack of an air filter.

If you are trying to get this thing to run properly it's probably best you restore it to as close to factory as possible(stock carb, filter, jets pipe ect). Eliminate all the possible variables and what if's that you can

If your still having problems then it should be easier to identify through a process of checking and elimination where your problem lies... After all, pretty sure she ran fine out of the box all them years back

Your post heading about the whole air filter 'myth', coupled with the fact that you mention that the head of the forum states that the Spree wont run with an air filter, and making reference to the fact that he also happens to sell filters is one hella way to rub people up the wrong way guy!!

'Running' at half speed and then dying after a few minutes, followed by the inability to restart for a few hours is not anyones definition of running.

I didnt make any reference to Honda here... Can I still get a check?!

[MrJumps]

My 86 spree stock would never run right on the pod I had for it, never could get it near right up 1 jet it would stall down 1 it would back fire and sputter hard. Add a little tape to the filter and it ran batter for a little while and as the tape got soaked with oil and gas and what ever else the low sitting engine gets exsposed to it ran like s*** again. Sprees need stock air intake items. Unless your gonna run a after market intake and carb your wasting time and energy on it. Might as well swap in a 4tgy6 if you want no airfilter you can run a velocity stack too! That .0008hp gain you get from a stack on a 4t and no filter, you will rid the air of bees, flys, small birds in no time. Maybe instead of running without a fimter you can run with too for that extra down low torque it will give. Maybe while were at it with that we can pull the front rim off and grind down the spoaks until there ultra thin for extra weight reduction.

I feel this is about gaining power. If you really wanna gain power on a spree buy a chain to tow it behind your car with.