New info on ethanol as a fuel.

[Bear45-70]

The buddy who sent this to me is a refinery inefficiency expert.

Ethanol produces less heat when used as a motor fuel; therefore, more ethanol is required for the power needed to operate toadyÔÇÖs cars and trucks. Most cars require less than 50 hp to operate on level intrastate highways. Producing this power from an E-85 fuel vehicle burning gasoline will provide 20 plus fuel mileage, but the same vehicle may see the fuel mileage drop to 13 or 14 mpg when using E-85 due to the increase in fuel used to produce the same 50 horsepower. Ethanol will not hurt the maximum power output of an engine designed to operate on E-85, but the engine must burn more fuel to offset the loss of heat (and the associated thermal expansion) to produce the required power.



There is another factor that reduces the desirability of ethanol for a motor fuel. This is the transportation of ethanol from the production facility to the consumer. Currently no pipeline infrastructure exists for transporting ethanol; therefore, ethanol is transported to the consumer by diesel powered trucks or diesel powered trains. Highway or rail shipment of any fuel is less efficient than pipeline shipment.



The message attached does not even mention the fact that most ethanol produced in this country from corn requires tractors and other diesel powered equipment. When the required diesel to operate the farm equipment is factored into the production of ethanol, the actual renewable fuel can require more oil based fuel than the ethanol saves. Far too many people take the environmental view that 10% ethanol will reduce the fossil fuel use by 10%; therefore 85% ethanol will reduce our dependence on fossil fuel by 85%. This is not true.



Ethanol facts:



* Ethanol fuel mileage is lower than gasoline or diesel fuel mileage in comparable vehicles

* Fuel is required to transport ethanol from the production facility to the consumer

* The pipeline infrastructure cannot currently transport ethanol

* Fuel is required to operate the farm equipment used to produce ethanol

* The required corn production used to produce ethanol impacts the cost of food, farm animal feed, and the associated cost of farm products that rely on corn for their feed

* Ethanol production is more expensive than gasoline or diesel production

* Government subsidies and tax breaks are used to ÔÇ£hideÔÇØ the true cost of ethanol from the consumer

[noiseguy]

Yes on all this. There is an ethanol pipeline in the Midwest, going from some point A->B, but it's small. Issue is all the water in the current pipes used for fuel, ironically. E85 absorbs it.

US Gov'n was (and probably still is) subsidizing ethanol to the tune of $0.50/gallon. Otherwise, we'd buy it all from Brasil.

Most ethanol goes into E10... gas with 10% ethanol... really a better use.

You can increase compression with E85... much higher octane. That's really the only way to make the stuff work for you.

Ethanol exists just to provide farm belt with corn subsidies... no other reason. Energy independence? Please. Still relies on non-renewables for transport and fertilizer.

[Dio89Elite]

Interesting. Bear (and noiseguy), thanks for sharing!

[dv/dt]

Yes, as far as an economical fuel for the usual daily driver, E85 is not the answer.

However, if you have something with a nice FI setup (turbo/super) E85 is your godsend. 105 octane and cheap as dirt.

[geezer101]

Here in Australia ethanol is exempt from regular fuel taxes and was introduced in E10 as being 4c/L cheaper than regular unleaded fuel. That margin has narrowed to 2c/L. Pretty sure ethanol produced here is made from sugar cane. E85 from pumps is very rare (I think I've only ever seen one station selling it). Doesn't matter where you are, you're at the mercy of the gods of hydrocarbon...

[noiseguy]

The only places I've seen with E85 in the US is in the Midwest, near where it is produced. It's pretty common to find in rural Illinois, for example. South Florida? There are a few around... ~30 for 5M people in Miami/Ft Lauderdale. Ironic, given how close we are to Brasil.

For a 105 octane fuel, E85 is very cost effective That's about the only positive I see for it. In terms of range / energy, though, it's inferior... your fuel economy drops 20% and I've never seen E85 discounted to the point where it's 20% cheaper than E10 gasoline.

Countries have all sorts of interesting work-arounds for fuel. In Brasil, the cost of ethanol compared to gas changes over time, so many cars can be switched depending on the economics. For cars that run E100 (pure ethanol), they still have a small gasoline tank that's used for starting in cold (<50F) temps, that then switches to E100. In India, where cooking gas is government subsidized, cars have dual tanks (one for gasoline, one for cooking gas) with cooking gas being used to run around town (short range) and gasoline for longer trips.

[eliteguy50]

We see e85 differp below 20%. Seen $1.85 specials too. A lot of guys are running biodiesel in their trucks, not as common in standard tractors. We ship more corn by rail than ethanol, its cheaper that way.

[devenex]

Its pretty widely accepted in the scientific community that corn ethanol does not produce net energy. Another point that can be brought up is the energy used to convert corn to ethanol (much more complicated due to the fact that most corn sugars are stored as starches) and subsequent purification.

This has all become just another gift from washington to farm lobbyists (who represent large companies like monsanto and not "family farms").

[Pete M]

Noise you have an e85 station on the turnpike down your way. On my trip back to Daytona from Key West I noticed it. Can't tell you exactly but it is there.

[OneBulletDan]

I agree with all of the above, but the corn used for ethanol production is also recycled into livestock feed, so it doesn`t go to waste. Sweet horse feed, for one, is made from dried distiller`s grain.

[Bear45-70]

I agree with all of the above, but the corn used for ethanol production is also recycled into livestock feed, so it doesn`t go to waste. Sweet horse feed, for one, is made from dried distiller`s grain.

Regardless, it is another government boondoggle on the American public.

[SuprasNsprees]

For a 105 octane fuel, E85 is very cost effective That's about the only positive I see for it.

Many many many "street"/racecars are running it because of this one reason. Turn up the boost and crank the timing!

Buy it by the 55gal barrel, and only have to test it once

[eliteguy50]

When we get a diseased crop, the ethanol plants will still buy it.

[geezer101]

I agree with all of the above, but the corn used for ethanol production is also recycled into livestock feed, so it doesn`t go to waste. Sweet horse feed, for one, is made from dried distiller`s grain.

Regardless, it is another government boondoggle on the American public.

It's now global Bear, we're being told to buy the lie. And it goes for all the 'green' alternatives - solar panels (evil to make, non-recyclable), hybrid cars (battery packs are an environmental disaster). I could go on forever... Just buy a scooter and save the world!

[Bear45-70]

Regardless, it is another government boondoggle on the American public.

It's now global Bear, we're being told to buy the lie. And it goes for all the 'green' alternatives - solar panels (evil to make, non-recyclable), hybrid cars (battery packs are an environmental disaster). I could go on forever... Just buy a scooter and save the world!

Ah but the government hates scooter. To relicense my 1983 Aero 80 this year is going to be almost $50. My daughters 1995 Ford Explorer is only $58 and I'm paying the same tonnage fee as her Explorer and my F150XLT. My sub 200 pound scooter beats the roads as bad as the 3800# Explorer and my 4400# F150. I don't think so. And I use on * of a lot less gas.