New member from France with a 1986 Aero 50
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Re: New member from France with a 1986 Aero 50
EDITED to complete.
Honda says 100Ôé¼ +/-... for the bystarter.
I am doing the tests by the shop manual.
First test : resistance of the by starter.
I measured 4.3 ohms.
Supposed to be 10 ohms...maximum. But what should the minimum be?
2 other tests to do :
1┬░ Carb sitting for 30 mins, apply pressure (Mityvac pump for example) to the enrichening circuit. Passage blocked : change the bystarter.
2┬░ Connect the bystarter to battery and wait 5 mins. Apply pressure the same way. Passage without restriction : change bystarter.
I'll be back.
Test 1┬░ : passage is not blocked. So is ok.
Test 2┬░ : passage is not completely blocked. The pressure will not stay in place. So is not ok.
Symptoms :
When the engine is started at cold, it revs waaaaay too high.
When the engine is running at hot, it slowly stalls.
I can manage to keep it idling if I fiddle with the throttle from time to time.
Checking the plug : it is wet when idling.
I have found a link that explains, in french, how these bystarters work :
http://www.club-scootergt.com/tutoriels ... tique.html
There are pictures clear enough to illustrate what I'm explaining just after.
To make it short :
The piston in the bystarter is pushed down by wax contained in a cylinder. The wax is heated electrically.
In about 5 mins, the piston should be all the way down and cut out the choke circuit.
I used to have a Daimler Double Six which had an Additionnal Air Valve.
The wax was heated by the collant fluid of the engine.
This AAV was often causing problems when ageing.
Wax was "lost" and the piston, at cold start, was letting too much air in : idle at cold was too high.
When hot, the piston was still letting too much air, you could correct this with the idle screw. But the cold starting was too low then.
I saved my AAV by taking it apart and "squeezing" the cylinder containing the wax to get the piston to the original height (I knew that height because someone had measured it on a new one).
I think my bystarter has the same problem here. By some means the piston is too high at cold and can't get low enough when heated to cut out the choke circuit.
I don't think I can't take it apart, it looks like it is sealed.
Moreover I don't know what the normal piston height should be....
So I will have to change it. If the new one works, I may cut it open to see how it is inside...
Honda says 100Ôé¼ +/-... for the bystarter.
I am doing the tests by the shop manual.
First test : resistance of the by starter.
I measured 4.3 ohms.
Supposed to be 10 ohms...maximum. But what should the minimum be?
2 other tests to do :
1┬░ Carb sitting for 30 mins, apply pressure (Mityvac pump for example) to the enrichening circuit. Passage blocked : change the bystarter.
2┬░ Connect the bystarter to battery and wait 5 mins. Apply pressure the same way. Passage without restriction : change bystarter.
I'll be back.
Test 1┬░ : passage is not blocked. So is ok.
Test 2┬░ : passage is not completely blocked. The pressure will not stay in place. So is not ok.
Symptoms :
When the engine is started at cold, it revs waaaaay too high.
When the engine is running at hot, it slowly stalls.
I can manage to keep it idling if I fiddle with the throttle from time to time.
Checking the plug : it is wet when idling.
I have found a link that explains, in french, how these bystarters work :
http://www.club-scootergt.com/tutoriels ... tique.html
There are pictures clear enough to illustrate what I'm explaining just after.
To make it short :
The piston in the bystarter is pushed down by wax contained in a cylinder. The wax is heated electrically.
In about 5 mins, the piston should be all the way down and cut out the choke circuit.
I used to have a Daimler Double Six which had an Additionnal Air Valve.
The wax was heated by the collant fluid of the engine.
This AAV was often causing problems when ageing.
Wax was "lost" and the piston, at cold start, was letting too much air in : idle at cold was too high.
When hot, the piston was still letting too much air, you could correct this with the idle screw. But the cold starting was too low then.
I saved my AAV by taking it apart and "squeezing" the cylinder containing the wax to get the piston to the original height (I knew that height because someone had measured it on a new one).
I think my bystarter has the same problem here. By some means the piston is too high at cold and can't get low enough when heated to cut out the choke circuit.
I don't think I can't take it apart, it looks like it is sealed.
Moreover I don't know what the normal piston height should be....
So I will have to change it. If the new one works, I may cut it open to see how it is inside...
Last edited by GSX1400 on Wed Mar 19, 2014 3:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: New member from France with a 1986 Aero 50
Very true sir wheelman. Check the post with the compression reading again. Although not in order, the higher compression reading is at 4200km, while the lower was close to 1000km.Wheelman-111 wrote:Greetings:
Carbon deposits tend to increase, not Decrease compression.
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Re: New member from France with a 1986 Aero 50
It may be possible your not getting enough fuel or air to the engine while warm. Hence why the engine is idling better with the cold start enrichment(bystarter unplugged)
Re: New member from France with a 1986 Aero 50
I think too much fuel is getting in the engine when warm because of the wet plug.
Just completed my previous post for more informations.
Just completed my previous post for more informations.
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Re: New member from France with a 1986 Aero 50
So, some pics now.
The reeds :
Inlet gaskets :
Scraping the old gasket :
Special tool for this job :
Done :
Same thing on the manifold :
I finished the job by "rubbing" the flange on a sandpaper (very thin sand grain).
I noticed that the inside of the manifold was really nicely finished, smooth and all.
Making my gaskets :
I managed to take one off without damaging it too much
I made 2 sets to have a pair in advance :
The silicon orings for the carb flanges :
Silicon is better quality than the OEM ones.
The plug after idling a bit with the bystarter, IMHO, giving too much gas :
After a bit of driving :
Measuring the resistance of the bystarter :
The reeds :
Inlet gaskets :
Scraping the old gasket :
Special tool for this job :
Done :
Same thing on the manifold :
I finished the job by "rubbing" the flange on a sandpaper (very thin sand grain).
I noticed that the inside of the manifold was really nicely finished, smooth and all.
Making my gaskets :
I managed to take one off without damaging it too much
I made 2 sets to have a pair in advance :
The silicon orings for the carb flanges :
Silicon is better quality than the OEM ones.
The plug after idling a bit with the bystarter, IMHO, giving too much gas :
After a bit of driving :
Measuring the resistance of the bystarter :
"TT"* and me : http://www.hondaspree.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=24745
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Re: New member from France with a 1986 Aero 50
Greetings:
Nice work. Au Quebec, on dit "Belle Job!". Your reasoning is sound. An open enrichener circuit would keep the engine from running well once it warms up. The other possible reason is a clogged Pilot circuit.
Nice work. Au Quebec, on dit "Belle Job!". Your reasoning is sound. An open enrichener circuit would keep the engine from running well once it warms up. The other possible reason is a clogged Pilot circuit.
Wheelman-111
Most of my money is spent on scooterparts. The rest is just wasted.
"ISO": '03 Vespa ET4 Malossi187 74MPH
Flash 9: 2001 Elite SR Contesta 72 ZX Tran, 9:1 Gears, Stock Airbox/Carb/Pipe 58.8 MPH
Punkin: 2010 Vespa/Malossi S78, 61MPH
Most of my money is spent on scooterparts. The rest is just wasted.
"ISO": '03 Vespa ET4 Malossi187 74MPH
Flash 9: 2001 Elite SR Contesta 72 ZX Tran, 9:1 Gears, Stock Airbox/Carb/Pipe 58.8 MPH
Punkin: 2010 Vespa/Malossi S78, 61MPH
Re: New member from France with a 1986 Aero 50
I hoping the 3 ultrasonic cleanings to have eliminated this possibility.
I have checked the main jet and the long tube under it (stripped everything that I could on the carb) and bystarter circuit (tiny) for any visible obstructions.
I am now looking for an economical replacement solution for this bystarter.
I have seen some things on Ebay, but it is so cheap I am scared it could be some lousy shÔÇót...
Where would you buy yours?
I have checked the main jet and the long tube under it (stripped everything that I could on the carb) and bystarter circuit (tiny) for any visible obstructions.
I am now looking for an economical replacement solution for this bystarter.
I have seen some things on Ebay, but it is so cheap I am scared it could be some lousy shÔÇót...
Where would you buy yours?
"TT"* and me : http://www.hondaspree.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=24745
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Re: New member from France with a 1986 Aero 50
Greetings:
Were it not for la Gendarmerie, I would get an adaptor, a CT Chrome manifold, and an OKO 21mm carb and be done with the PA carb issues.
Another, nearly stock option is the Arreche-for-Honda 17.5 or 19mm. Fits the stock flange and airbox. Unfortunately it re-uses the Honda bystarter. If yours is the problem, the Arreche isn't a good solution. Scooter-Center.com and 50cc.EU carried the Arreche line at one time. Affordable, too.
Were it not for la Gendarmerie, I would get an adaptor, a CT Chrome manifold, and an OKO 21mm carb and be done with the PA carb issues.
Another, nearly stock option is the Arreche-for-Honda 17.5 or 19mm. Fits the stock flange and airbox. Unfortunately it re-uses the Honda bystarter. If yours is the problem, the Arreche isn't a good solution. Scooter-Center.com and 50cc.EU carried the Arreche line at one time. Affordable, too.
Wheelman-111
Most of my money is spent on scooterparts. The rest is just wasted.
"ISO": '03 Vespa ET4 Malossi187 74MPH
Flash 9: 2001 Elite SR Contesta 72 ZX Tran, 9:1 Gears, Stock Airbox/Carb/Pipe 58.8 MPH
Punkin: 2010 Vespa/Malossi S78, 61MPH
Most of my money is spent on scooterparts. The rest is just wasted.
"ISO": '03 Vespa ET4 Malossi187 74MPH
Flash 9: 2001 Elite SR Contesta 72 ZX Tran, 9:1 Gears, Stock Airbox/Carb/Pipe 58.8 MPH
Punkin: 2010 Vespa/Malossi S78, 61MPH
Re: New member from France with a 1986 Aero 50
Hi Wheelman,
Yes, the 50cc's are VERY watched over by the law and insurers. When you have an accident or whatever, they come in and have a look at your scoot or moped. IF anything isn't just like it should be, then no insurance, you get prosecuted by the police AND the insurers that won't pay for the accident and anything that occurs because of the accident...
Not very funny eh?
Anyways, just for the technical knowledge, would my full stock engine work with a 17.5 ou 19mm carb'???
What are the issues of the PA carb'?
I mean, except from this sh*tty auto-bystarter and its tiny circuits that can get clogged?
I am keen on having a scoot that will ride for a long time/distance without causing any problems and find the actual "performances" sufficient.
If it weren't for the bystarter, I would've been 100% satisfied.
Jesus...100 Ôé¼ for a bystarter.
These scoots go for less than 400/500Ôé¼ here!!!
But I don't want to buy one for spares (no place to stock) and neither do I want to chance it on a used bystarter...
I had a look on the 2 websites, but they don't seem to carry generic bystarters :
http://www.scooter-center.com/search?query=bystarter
http://www.50cc.eu/en/search.asp?zoek=B ... mit=Search
I also did a research with the part n┬░ on the above websites :
16046GN2622
Nothing came up.
My Honda dealer is looking for a cheaper solution with a copy of the bystarter that is supposed to fit on all scoots???
I may have to adapt the connectors, but that shouldn't be a problem.
CMSNL has the part for almost 90Ôé¼. Gasp...so fecking expensive!
Yes, the 50cc's are VERY watched over by the law and insurers. When you have an accident or whatever, they come in and have a look at your scoot or moped. IF anything isn't just like it should be, then no insurance, you get prosecuted by the police AND the insurers that won't pay for the accident and anything that occurs because of the accident...
Not very funny eh?
Anyways, just for the technical knowledge, would my full stock engine work with a 17.5 ou 19mm carb'???
What are the issues of the PA carb'?
I mean, except from this sh*tty auto-bystarter and its tiny circuits that can get clogged?
I am keen on having a scoot that will ride for a long time/distance without causing any problems and find the actual "performances" sufficient.
If it weren't for the bystarter, I would've been 100% satisfied.
Jesus...100 Ôé¼ for a bystarter.
These scoots go for less than 400/500Ôé¼ here!!!
But I don't want to buy one for spares (no place to stock) and neither do I want to chance it on a used bystarter...
I had a look on the 2 websites, but they don't seem to carry generic bystarters :
http://www.scooter-center.com/search?query=bystarter
http://www.50cc.eu/en/search.asp?zoek=B ... mit=Search
I also did a research with the part n┬░ on the above websites :
16046GN2622
Nothing came up.
My Honda dealer is looking for a cheaper solution with a copy of the bystarter that is supposed to fit on all scoots???
I may have to adapt the connectors, but that shouldn't be a problem.
CMSNL has the part for almost 90Ôé¼. Gasp...so fecking expensive!
Last edited by GSX1400 on Thu Mar 20, 2014 4:50 am, edited 3 times in total.
"TT"* and me : http://www.hondaspree.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=24745
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Re: New member from France with a 1986 Aero 50
id almost bet the dealer will by the cheap chinese one and the add 200% on the price .Someone here must have one they could send to you Couldnt cost more than $20 to send to the uk
86 Nifty Fifty (spree)
ZX disk brake
Kitico 120kmh speedo
AF18 ZX ported
Polini corsa
Malossi crank
CTmani
24mmOKO
40pilot118main
Scorpion pipe
8.44 to 1
Michelin s1
71.3mph
92 yz125, 94 crm250
ZX disk brake
Kitico 120kmh speedo
AF18 ZX ported
Polini corsa
Malossi crank
CTmani
24mmOKO
40pilot118main
Scorpion pipe
8.44 to 1
Michelin s1
71.3mph
92 yz125, 94 crm250
Re: New member from France with a 1986 Aero 50
These are what I found on Ebay :
http://www.ebay.fr/itm/CARBURETOR-BYSTA ... 1c35eb0c9b
http://www.ebay.fr/itm/AUTO-CHOKE-CARBU ... 41762c01ed
http://www.ebay.fr/itm/CARBURETOR-BYSTA ... 1c35eb1b30
Same prices, same looking pictures, same location...DIFFERENT seller names??? What is the trick?
I would just have to change the plug because mine are "bullet" type plugs.
Not a problem for me.
Do you know if they really fit the Aero 50 (European version) because I'm worried about differences between your local market and ours (head lights, turn signals, ramp plates and exhausts were different for example)?
What about the quality of the products?
If you happen to have any feedback...
Best regards.
http://www.ebay.fr/itm/CARBURETOR-BYSTA ... 1c35eb0c9b
http://www.ebay.fr/itm/AUTO-CHOKE-CARBU ... 41762c01ed
http://www.ebay.fr/itm/CARBURETOR-BYSTA ... 1c35eb1b30
Same prices, same looking pictures, same location...DIFFERENT seller names??? What is the trick?
I would just have to change the plug because mine are "bullet" type plugs.
Not a problem for me.
Do you know if they really fit the Aero 50 (European version) because I'm worried about differences between your local market and ours (head lights, turn signals, ramp plates and exhausts were different for example)?
What about the quality of the products?
If you happen to have any feedback...
Best regards.
"TT"* and me : http://www.hondaspree.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=24745
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Re: New member from France with a 1986 Aero 50
I'm in France.paulpauly7 wrote:id almost bet the dealer will by the cheap chinese one and the add 200% on the price .Someone here must have one they could send to you Couldnt cost more than $20 to send to the uk
$23 for international shipping if I beleive the ebay sellers above. That is a bit expensive BTW for such a little and light thing.
BUT, cheaper than my dealer anyways so...
What do yo think about these, supposodly, chinese things. They work ok?
I'm not taking a chance on a used part though...
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Re: New member from France with a 1986 Aero 50
Another detail I forgot to talk about and that makes me think the bystarter is opened a bit when engine is hot is that, when the engine is hot, if screw in the air screw completely (completely closed then), the engine keeps on idling (a bit faster though).Wheelman-111 wrote:Greetings:
Nice work. Au Quebec, on dit "Belle Job!". Your reasoning is sound. An open enrichener circuit would keep the engine from running well once it warms up. The other possible reason is a clogged Pilot circuit.
A bit of research brought me to these results that could be usefull to others.
Honda NB50M is called Vision here and is the "same" as the Peugeot ST50/Rapido.
Carbs for those who would prefer to change from the Keihin and with (sometimes you have to buy the bystarter apart) automatic bystarters :
http://www.scooter-center.com/product/C ... a*1*1*1*16
http://www.scooter-center.com/product/C ... 33*33*3*16
Manual choke version (you have to adapt a cable and everything) :
http://www.scooter-center.com/product/C ... a*3*3*1*16
Cable for manual choke :
http://www.scooter-center.com/product/C ... a*8*8*1*16
I FINALLY FOUND the bystarters (they call them automatik choke, that's why I couldn't find them )!
I am supposing they will fit my Keihin as they say it fits Vision 50...
http://www.scooter-center.com/product/C ... a*5*5*1*16
http://www.scooter-center.com/product/7 ... a*4*4*1*16
I don't know which choke to choose though...
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Re: New member from France with a 1986 Aero 50
Greetings:
I ran a 17.5 Amal-Arreche on a Polini 65cc - never on 50cc, but I do believe the size is close enough to stock that it would work with suitable jetting. The Amal has replaceable Pilots, emulsion tubes and Mains, so totally tunable. It might even offer a modest performance boost, particularly if you clean up the intake port and add an SP-3 (Kit #4447) exhaust. Both modifications appear "stock" enough to pass the scrutiny of the Gendarmes.
I ran a 17.5 Amal-Arreche on a Polini 65cc - never on 50cc, but I do believe the size is close enough to stock that it would work with suitable jetting. The Amal has replaceable Pilots, emulsion tubes and Mains, so totally tunable. It might even offer a modest performance boost, particularly if you clean up the intake port and add an SP-3 (Kit #4447) exhaust. Both modifications appear "stock" enough to pass the scrutiny of the Gendarmes.
Wheelman-111
Most of my money is spent on scooterparts. The rest is just wasted.
"ISO": '03 Vespa ET4 Malossi187 74MPH
Flash 9: 2001 Elite SR Contesta 72 ZX Tran, 9:1 Gears, Stock Airbox/Carb/Pipe 58.8 MPH
Punkin: 2010 Vespa/Malossi S78, 61MPH
Most of my money is spent on scooterparts. The rest is just wasted.
"ISO": '03 Vespa ET4 Malossi187 74MPH
Flash 9: 2001 Elite SR Contesta 72 ZX Tran, 9:1 Gears, Stock Airbox/Carb/Pipe 58.8 MPH
Punkin: 2010 Vespa/Malossi S78, 61MPH
Re: New member from France with a 1986 Aero 50
Do you have an opinion on these 2 bystarters?GSX1400 wrote: I FINALLY FOUND the bystarters (they call them automatik choke, that's why I couldn't find them )!
I am supposing they will fit my Keihin as they say it fits Vision 50...
http://www.scooter-center.com/product/C ... a*5*5*1*16
http://www.scooter-center.com/product/7 ... a*4*4*1*16
I don't know which choke to choose though...
This one is really close to the original one (especially the heat cover) :
http://www.scooter-center.com/product/C ... a*5*5*1*16
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