A hardworking SA50 needs some speed but must maintain torque

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mwilliamshs
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A hardworking SA50 needs some speed but must maintain torque

Post by mwilliamshs »

GREETINGS! I'm a noob to this forum and while I've had a couple scooters in the past I was a kid and never did anything but ride them, no mods or tuning. If this thread would be better served in a different sub-forum let me know or have it moved, whatever works.

Recently picked up a 98 SA50 that's very ugly cosmetically but quite beautiful mechanically. Belonged to the daughter of a real "wheeler-dealer" and was her college ride. Has ~3,500 miles and runs smoooooothly. Haven't checked top speed with GPS but the speedo rides above 35 mph on the flats with no wind with just me aboard. Keeps up with traffic quite well here in the city so long as I stay on the correct routes and avoid the roads where typical speeds are the "limit plus 10". Take-off is decent (quicker than the average car being driven casually) and is all I expect from a 50cc automatic. Acceleration is linear from stop to top speed, whatever that speed actually is doesn't matter much to me really but it does get there without lugging or noticeably over-revving.

Here's a shot of her coming home in the van: (note the phonebooks piled about)

Image

Now here's a shot of what I mean by hardworking:

Image

That's a load of 40 phone books, 9 on the front rack (I bolted on a random wire rack from the thrift store, works GREAT) and 31 on the back (typical milkcrate on white wire-frame shelf) totalling about 50 lbs total, to which I add my 210 lb self. Here's the front rack, bolted right on to the stock front cover retaining nuts using some padded p-clamps (aka aviation line clamps, etc) and you get a shot of the horrible paint job.

Image

This bike is mostly just gonna be an around town ride, back and forth to work and school, maybe 10 miles a day max but over the summer I'm delivering phonebooks locally (still in that 10 mile radius) as a side job. I ride responsibly and don't lug the old girl up steep driveways when loaded heavily and I'm mindful of the extra weight when it comes to stopping distances, brake fade, etc. I treat her nice with good oil (Motul Scooter Expert) and keep her tires aired up and let her warm up and cool off before and after her chores.

I've spent the current budget getting her home and fixing some of the PO's stupid mistakes (HEAVY lawn mower battery hacked-in under the seat, zip-tied broken handlebar cover, etc) and making the headlight upgrade to a 2001 spec unit instead of replacing the costly sealed-beam as originally equipped (low beam was burned out when I bought her). The originally purple plastics have been spray-bombed black (by PO, not me). The handlebar cover is cracked and broken and zip-ties hold it on which causes terrible headlight alignment. A replacement has been ordered and I used the part-number for a 2001/1992 model so it'll already be nice and black.

Future plans might include a couple mods toward increased top speed, nothing crazy but turning 35 into 45 would be real nice for the occasional evasive maneuver or when running late to class, etc. My thoughts are, in order: 90/90-10 rear tire for increased diameter, 9:1 gears for lower rpm at higher speeds, and a different variator with lighter rollers (7.5 gram to start or whatever works out best eventually) to offset the loss of gear reduction and probably a different center spring to match the lighter rollers. I'm open to suggestions on all of the above. I'm curious what difference just the tire would make in top speed? Might be worthwhile to upgrade that sooner than later and keep the current 3.00 for when the front wears out.

I'm pretty knowledgeable of machines and engines, rpm, gearing, etc but haven't uncovered useful information on this machine other than it's gears are ~12:1. What's the stock redline? What RPM should a stock machine turn at 35 mph? What spread of ratios are available from the stock CVT? Would 9.8:1 gears be a better compromise considering I cannot afford to burn up a clutch moving the load but would like to move a bit quicker when unloaded? What's the top speed with 9.8:1?

Thanks in advance for any and all constructive assistance! Look forward to hearing from you!
Last edited by mwilliamshs on Sat Jun 20, 2015 12:35 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: A hardworking SA50 needs some speed but must maintain to

Post by mwilliamshs »

A 3.00-10 CST CM505 tire is listed as 16.3" diameter, 50.265" circumference

5,280 * 12 = 63,360 and 63,360/50.265 = 1,260.5 tire rev per mile

Assuming the stock CVT gets to 1:1 (direct) and no overdrive is possible (I really don't know if that's the case) that means with a 12:1 gearset the engine is spinning 15,126.23 revs per mile, or at 35 mph it's 8,823.63 RPM.

Does 8,800 rpm at top speed sound right for one of these scoots in a stock state? I have no clue.

EDIT: NOPE, it isn't. Keep reading.
Last edited by mwilliamshs on Sat Jun 27, 2015 1:24 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: A hardworking SA50 needs some speed but must maintain to

Post by mwilliamshs »

Using the info above:

5,280 * 12 = 63,360 and 63,360/50.265 = 1,260.5 tire rev per mile

Assuming the stock CVT gets to 1:1 (direct) and no overdrive is possible (I really don't know if that's the case) that means with a 9:1 gearset the engine is spinning 7,002 RPM @ 50 mph.

Does 7,000 rpm at top speed sound right for one of these scoots a 9:1 gearset? I have no clue.

EDIT: NOPE, it isn't. Keep reading.
Last edited by mwilliamshs on Sat Jun 27, 2015 1:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A hardworking SA50 needs some speed but must maintain to

Post by mwilliamshs »

A 3.00-10 CST CM505 tire is listed as 16.3" diameter, 50.265" circumference

5,280 * 12 = 63,360 and 63,360/50.265 = 1,260.5 tire rev per mile

Assuming the stock CVT gets to 1:1 (direct) and no overdrive is possible (I really don't know if that's the case) that means with a 9.8:1 gearset the engine is spinning 12,352.9 revs per mile, or at 35 mph it's 7,205 RPM.

Does 7,200 rpm at 35 mph sound right for one of these scoots with 9.8:1 gears? I have no clue.

How about 9,264 RPM at 45 mph with 9.8s? (sounds pretty high to me!)

EDIT: NOPE, it isn't. Keep reading.
Last edited by mwilliamshs on Sat Jun 27, 2015 1:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A hardworking SA50 needs some speed but must maintain to

Post by mwilliamshs »

From here

Wheelman-111 wrote:...With 35 miles on the odometer, my Flash 3 went ~42 MPH with stock gears, ALL stock power - not even an airbox inlet punched out - Stock 8.5-gram rollers, a GummyBear (old and pasty) stock air filter element, the 90/90 tire and a Polini variator. That grew to ~49 MPH with 9:1 gears and no additional mods. These are GPS figures, not the optimistic speedometer values.
With tach readings to go with this info all my questions could be answered!
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Re: A hardworking SA50 needs some speed but must maintain to

Post by Trafficjamz »

I made this chart to estimate top speeds

Image

The max over drive ratio is 0.8:1 not 1:1

This chart assumes you have a 90/90 10" tire

9.8:1 gears would probably serve you well if nothing else is being done to increase engine power.
new best 1/8th mile time 9.647 seconds @67.155 mph 310lbs total weight
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Re: A hardworking SA50 needs some speed but must maintain to

Post by Trafficjamz »

Image


Here is a chart for exact gear ratios and tooth counts.

You seem to know the math required to figure out the rest. :nerd:
new best 1/8th mile time 9.647 seconds @67.155 mph 310lbs total weight
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Re: A hardworking SA50 needs some speed but must maintain to

Post by mwilliamshs »

graphite9 wrote:Variator, and deres trick should get you to 45...
What's "deres trick"?
graphite9 wrote:...Add gears to hit 50...
So gears may not be necessary at all for me. COOL
graphite9 wrote:...But your access will suffer...
My what?
graphite9 wrote:...It's give and take. You can't gain torque and speed. It's one or the other...
Right you are. That's why I indicated I'd like to gain speed without sacrificing too much torque.
graphite9 wrote:...You might be happy with just a Variator kit
VERY interesting...Might as well start there, eh? :coolcruise: THANKS for the input!!!
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Re: A hardworking SA50 needs some speed but must maintain to

Post by mwilliamshs »

Having learned that the stock CVT gets to 0.85:1 (15% overdrive) and that the stock gearset total reduction is in fact 12.12:1 (not 12.0 as I'd previously proposed)...

The engine is spinning as few as 13,082.09 revs per mile, and at 35 mph it's 7,631.22 RPM. (assuming new belt, etc etc)

Does ~7,600 rpm at top speed sound right for one of these scoots in a stock state? I have no clue.

SWAPPING FROM 3.00-10 to 90/90-10

Using that math but swapping to a 90/90-10 tire instead (51.45" circumference), which should turn only about 1,231 times per mile (from here), engine revs are reduced to 12,681.762 per mile and 7,397.695 per minute (RPM) at 35 rpm

That means at the same RPM our scoot is now moving just about 35.84, a gain of .84 mph. Not worth the trouble or expense of a tire swap in my book but when it comes time to replace tires, might as well go 90/90-10 if it's not much more expensive and from briefly looking around, it appears 90/90s may in fact be cheaper. Not bad news.

I've found differing numbers for tire circumferences (as is expected for different brands, treads, etc) but 3.00 and 90/90 are always roughly .3" apart in that dimension, 3.00 being .3" smaller.

SWAPPING FROM 12.21:1 GEARS to 9.8:1 GEARS

So in stock form a post-94 SA50 is turning about 7,631.22 RPM at 35 mph and 13,082.09 revs per mile, assuming highest ratio possible from the CVT. Swapping in a 9.8:1 rear gearset drops that per mile number to 10,499.965 (call it 10,500) and the 35 mph RPM to 6,124.979583 (call it 6,125). The reason (my reason, that is) for the change is get closer to traffic speeds on roads where speed limits are 45 mph so at that speed the engine is turning 7,875, or just ~3% more than 35 mph required in stock form. This means with no other changes, and a load light enough that stock power levels are sufficient to overcome friction, gravity, etc, a 9.8:1 gearset should allow a completely stock SA50 to hit 43.6 mph on level ground and about 44.4 mph with a 90/90 tire swapped in.
Last edited by mwilliamshs on Tue Jun 23, 2015 8:24 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: A hardworking SA50 needs some speed but must maintain to

Post by mwilliamshs »

codename47 wrote:the elite ramp plate seems to me to have built in restrictions...i swapped the ramp plate out...and my top speed increased 5-7 mph
Is it possible to swap just my ramp plate without other mods? Any suggestion for a good one vs a bad one?

:newb:

How about this one?
Last edited by mwilliamshs on Sat Jun 20, 2015 2:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A hardworking SA50 needs some speed but must maintain to

Post by 1man8scoots »

It's funny how accurate the chart is. I'm 82mph @10,800rpm with a 90\90-10.
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Re: A hardworking SA50 needs some speed but must maintain to

Post by mwilliamshs »

From this thread:
Wheelman-111 wrote:...the stock 8000-ish maximum...
So looks like stock redline (gearing assumed) is about 8k rpm. I'll keep looking for rpm info.
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Re: A hardworking SA50 needs some speed but must maintain to

Post by mwilliamshs »

graphite9 wrote:Variator, and deres trick should get you to 45. Add gears to hit 50...
mwilliamshs wrote:Having learned that the stock CVT gets to 0.85:1 (15% overdrive) and that the stock gearset total reduction is in fact 12.21:1 (not 12.0 as I'd previously proposed)...

The engine is spinning as few as 13,082.09 revs per mile, and at 35 mph it's 7,631.22 RPM. (assuming new belt, etc etc)
SWAPPING VARIATORS

So if swapping variators is supposed to raise top speed to 43ish, how would it do that? It would need to either to increase RPM by reduced flywheel effect and/or increase the % of overdrive.

Which method do the suggested Vari's use to increase top speed, lighter weight or larger OD or both? What's the stock variator OD?

We know the diameter of the variators vary a bit, and that the Ruckus variator requires grinding the case to fit it but that it does offer a higher top speed, how does it do this without requiring a longer belt?
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Re: A hardworking SA50 needs some speed but must maintain to

Post by mwilliamshs »

From here
Wheelman-111 wrote:...The Ruck-style Polini is 94mm where the Dio-style is 91. This theoretically gives more "overdrive" effect, even with a stock belt. The 641mm stock belt shouldn't bottom out in the larger rear pulley...
So I'm assuming (danger, danger) that the stock SA50 variator is less than 91mm.
Wheelman-111 wrote:...Leaving the engine completely stock, Flash III went 49 MPH with only a re-tuned variator, 9:1 gears and a 90/90 rear tire. At the time, the engine - and stock exhaust pipe - had less than 50 miles on them...
We know a 90/90 is good for .84 mph, and stock is 37ish mph so the variator and 9:1s took things from ~38 to 49mph. We know 9.8:1 gears can take things from ~38 to 44.4 so that extra 5mph (wheelman-111's 49mph) came from the drop in gearing and the variator swap. How much from each?

SWAPPING FROM 12.21:1 GEARS to 9:1 GEARS


So in stock form a post-94 SA50 is turning about 7,631.22 RPM at 35 mph and 13,082.09 revs per mile, assuming highest ratio possible from the CVT.

Swapping in a 9:1 rear gearset drops that per mile number to 10,254.23 and the 35 mph RPM to 5,981.634166. This means with no other changes, and a load light enough that stock power levels are sufficient to overcome friction, gravity, etc, a 9:1 gearset should allow an otherwise completely stock SA50 to hit 49.54 mph on level ground with a 90/90 tire swapped in.

So what's the variator doing in that equation if just the gears and stock rpm level are good for 49.54? Hoping wheelman clarifies whether this was with an aftermarket variator or the stocker. I suspect the latter with rollers better suited to the new gearing is what he meant by "re-tuned variator".

From here

Wheelman-111 wrote:...With 35 miles on the odometer, my Flash 3 went ~42 MPH with stock gears, ALL stock power - not even an airbox inlet punched out - Stock 8.5-gram rollers, a GummyBear (old and pasty) stock air filter element, the 90/90 tire and a Polini variator. That grew to ~49 MPH with 9:1 gears and no additional mods. These are GPS figures, not the optimistic speedometer values.
Another assumption here but it seems Wheelman swapped variators first (to Polini) and the tire to a 90/90, then gears. So it seems the tire was worth ~.84mph, the vari was worth ~4 mph on its own and the gears raised that another 5 or so, likely where stock power levels were no longer capable of overcoming weight and the wind with reduced mechanical advantage of the higher gearing.

I say this because just the gears should allow the top-end he achieved with both the Polini variator and gears so either the Polini didn't alter the gear ratio (erroneous considering his results) or the scoot ran out of power to accellerate further (strongly suspect that's what happened).
Last edited by mwilliamshs on Tue Jun 23, 2015 6:24 pm, edited 9 times in total.
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Re: A hardworking SA50 needs some speed but must maintain to

Post by mwilliamshs »

graphite9 wrote:...you can install a ramp plate...But you also need to buy rollers to go with...
Why? I'm a noob.

I've read about flat-spotting and my scooter has over 3k miles so when I open the variator for the first time I assume I'll need fresh rollers but I don't understand why an aftermarket ramp plate would require different rollers. I see that they fit into the grooves of the variator housing and push against the ramp plate so if the variator itself is unchanged I don't know why the rollers would need to be changed with an aftermarket ramp plate, assuming the rollers were in decent condition.
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