Getting the Tazland BBK, GEARS, + MLM ran on a dyno

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eclark5483
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Getting the Tazland BBK, GEARS, + MLM ran on a dyno

Post by eclark5483 » Tue Aug 02, 2016 10:18 am

So, as we all (should) know, you NEED that airbox on your Spree. While on the other hand, some people swear by pod filter for better performance when using a BBK. Who's right, who's wrong? The instructions that came with my BBK, said drill 3 1" holes in the airbox. My contention, and I am by no means anywhere near an expert... is that 3 1" holes are TOO MUCH air. So who am I to challenge what others are saying? Well, I AM someone who knows someone, with access to a Dyno. I have the guys at SS Collision & Cycleworks doing a TaoTao scooter project for me, and the owner Shawn is also going to be gracious enough to run the Spree's Tazland BBK and gears on the dyno, along side the MLM pipe. I have not yet purchased a Polini carb, or have I done any intake MODS.

Bystarter, Coil, vacuums lines, fuel lines, oil lines and sparkplug, are all brand new. CDI, is STOCK CDI. I DO still have the oil pump connected as well. Also mounted on the Spree is a tach and cylinder head temp gauge. The max temp on the gauge is like 302 I think. According to Shawn, I should be seeing at most around 280 ideally. So maybe having one that only goes to 302 won't be so bad if it actually does stay within an ideal range. Then I'd know if it DOES get up to the 302 threshold, then I am probably running hot anyway. But I guess we'll see.

TL;DR

Stock carb with provided #90 jet from kit
Stock air box
Stock intake
Tazland BBK
Tazland Gears
MLM sidebleed People's pipe.

Shawn's task, was take off that Uni-Filter, put that airbox back on, test on Dyno at different pressure levels. Put appropriate number and size holes in airbox when satisfied with results. And that's it!! Was just up at the shop talking with him about this, so he'll probably get around to it later in the week, and I will report back his findings. Will also report back Dyno results for HP, Torque, RPM, Max Speed, etc.

Don't know about any of you guys, but I'm pretty interested to see what the results are gonna be. And well... if they end up blowing the engine doing the Dyno torture test... plan B. will be to swap it out for the engine I have down in my basement on my workbench.

I'm sacrificing my scoot in the name of science!!!

Test will be conducted on, I believe, a Dynojet 250i
Last edited by eclark5483 on Wed Aug 03, 2016 7:57 am, edited 7 times in total.
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Re: Getting the Tazland BBK + MLM ran on a dyno

Post by Meatball » Tue Aug 02, 2016 10:56 am

Nice! Cant wait for results.
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Re: Getting the Tazland BBK + MLM ran on a dyno

Post by Ultraliner » Tue Aug 02, 2016 7:01 pm

This is gonna be very interesting eclarke, I suspected 3 x 1" holes were too much before I hacked my airbox lid up(there cant be much left of the original cover!)

I ended up buying a 2nd lid so I could keep a stock one. While waiting for the 2nd one to arrive I experimented by 'making' an airbox lid with masking tape - vey easy to adjust and play with hole sizes.

Long story short, I found that 2x 20mm holes(0.78")seemed to work pretty well. 2x 16mm holes choked it too much and it wouldnt rev properly.

As I mentioned in another post I have soft seized mine once, but I believe as a result of my going too hard on an unbroken bore more than anything else.

Bring on the science!!

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Re: Getting the Tazland BBK + MLM ran on a dyno

Post by eclark5483 » Wed Aug 03, 2016 5:45 am

I was gonna tell Shawn to try out different jet sizes and tunes, but I changed my mind about that. I think if I had him do that, it just might complicate things for someone who is trying to learn. There are so many variables that people would prefer. I would imagine the MLM will have SOME effect on the jet tuning, but I didn't feel like tearing it off just to test it with a stock muffler... besides that, my old stock muffler was an Iowa Spree muffler, not a regular one. Then you have variables like carb difference between the 84-85 and 86-87 and any other theorized differences between model years and types like the Iowa Edition and Special edition. For the record, my engine completely stock, is a 1986' Iowa Edition. The ASSUMED differences are Restricted muffler, 12T Gear, lower Main-jet size. But that's MY engine. Just want everyone to know that my engine is NOT YOUR ENGINE. Maybe you have an unknown difference in your carb then I do? From reading LOTS AND LOTS of past topics, I don't think it has ever been 100% confirmed what ALL the differences are. So with that being said, no reason to complicate the findings by doing any tweaks. It's just gonna be a "HERE IS HOW MUCH THE GUYS WERE ABLE TO SQUEEZE OUT OF IT, HERE IS WHERE THEY FELT MOST COMFORTABLE WITH THE AIR BOX". I don't expect their findings to unlock any performance techniques, but will hopefully show where the power pack trio of Taz Gears, Taz BBK, and MLM without any additional changes like oil pump, or jetting, feels most comfortable on the air intake side. I think if just THAT can be found, then it would be more beneficial to people who are just getting into trying a BBK upgrade themselves. Perhaps what they come up with shows a need for a jet change... who knows? I know I can't wait to see what the top speed is on the dyno. :2thumbs:
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Re: Getting the Tazland BBK, GEARS, + MLM ran on a dyno

Post by Meatball » Wed Aug 03, 2016 7:34 am

Be sure to let us know what main jet you try since you arent trying different ones. The Taz bbk is supplied with a main jet so I assume you have that installed? Taz sent me 3 different jets to try with my bbk so Im not sure which one you are using for the dyno runs. My experience was that I couldn't stop it from going lean at wot and it would sieze. Hopefully you can find a solution.
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Re: Getting the Tazland BBK, GEARS, + MLM ran on a dyno

Post by eclark5483 » Wed Aug 03, 2016 7:40 am

According to Taz, I was given the #90 mainjet.
3 Sprees
1 ATM50-A1
1 Indian AMI-50
The World's Greatest Spree: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lU49lL_Xx4s
Want to make a Spree engine go fast? CLICK HERE: LINK

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Re: Getting the Tazland BBK, GEARS, + MLM ran on a dyno

Post by tazland001 » Wed Aug 03, 2016 1:28 pm

Can't wait for the results. Do you want to try one of my bigger pilot jets for your dyne test?

I warned you meatball when I was helping you trouble shoot your spree. When you saw the white spark plug and sent me the pic before you seized I told you to stop riding it. Remember the warning warning warning text I sent you. Even though I send a main jet it is not a one size shoe fits all.

Taz

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Re: Getting the Tazland BBK, GEARS, + MLM ran on a dyno

Post by Meatball » Wed Aug 03, 2016 2:09 pm

tazland001 wrote:Can't wait for the results. Do you want to try one of my bigger pilot jets for your dyne test?

I warned you meatball when I was helping you trouble shoot your spree. When you saw the white spark plug and sent me the pic before you seized I told you to stop riding it. Remember the warning warning warning text I sent you. Even though I send a main jet it is not a one size shoe fits all.

Taz
Sorry, Taz. You have me mixed up with jakubman. I believe HE posted a picture of his plug on a thread and it looked clean and white. Ive never discussed spark plugs with you or anyone. My plugs always looked nice and brown. A few times they were wet and oily so I adjusted from there. Never white tho.
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Re: Getting the Tazland BBK, GEARS, + MLM ran on a dyno

Post by eclark5483 » Wed Aug 03, 2016 2:44 pm

tazland001 wrote:Can't wait for the results. Do you want to try one of my bigger pilot jets for your dyne test?

Taz
Nah, we'll go with what you sent and see what Shawn says. See if maybe he thinks we need to up the jet size, take it from there. And like graphite9 was saying, the Spree might not even spin the drum. Don't know how familiar anyone is with the Dynojet 250i. It LOOKS like it might work, but I'll guess we'll have to see.
3 Sprees
1 ATM50-A1
1 Indian AMI-50
The World's Greatest Spree: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lU49lL_Xx4s
Want to make a Spree engine go fast? CLICK HERE: LINK

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Re: Getting the Tazland BBK, GEARS, + MLM ran on a dyno

Post by wwolvert » Wed Aug 03, 2016 4:55 pm

this is a bone stock 1987 spree base line run on a dyno jet kart and atv dyno it takes a little bit to get the drum rolling but the spree spun it ok
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Re: Getting the Tazland BBK, GEARS, + MLM ran on a dyno

Post by eclark5483 » Thu Aug 04, 2016 5:36 am

NICE!! A baseline reading to compare to. What stinks a bit, is mine is only going to be but one configuration. Honestly, the Spree won't be driven so much. I'm guessing it's around 70% complete to where I want it to be. Gotta grab some break cables and throttle cable from Taz one of these times, few odds and ends here. But when it's done, it's gonna be more of a show bike. I have the newer bikes here at the house that we use. I'd LOVE to do another one with the af05 cvt version. And I will just as soon as I find another Iowa Spree (or frame) with clean title.

I had the guys at SS Collision and Cycleworks help me out, the guys from work, you guys. I have some tools, but never enough. I have a bench for an engine but wish I had one of those motorcycle jacks from harbor freight. Ain't no ways my knees would hold out being down like that. I work with motorcycles all day, know how to get the most beautiful paint job, but I am TERRIBLE at body work. I owe so much respect and thanks to the guys at SS Collision & Cycleworks. Great bunch they have there, easy to talk to, easy to communicate with. Know their restorations, know their motorcycles. And even more for you guys for pointing me in the right direction.

The other day when I was going over how I wanted the airbox to work, and the issues with Honda tuning these Sprees to run with that airbox and what I was thinking on it, he was like "You tell me how to go, you're the expert on this" And I was like "NO, I'm not"

The experts are you guys, all I did was take notes. I say it would be a crying shame to take a perfectly good air-box that someone can use to get there ride running again, that has a completely intact lid, and chop it in any way other then what is physically necessary. Shawn was actually in favor first of the pod filter. Till I mentioned to him about Honda tuning the engines with the airbox. He said he's ran across it before on another scooter they were working on. So he's like... tell ya what, let's do this. take the UNI filter home, let's put this on the Dyno, and get it figured out.

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3 Sprees
1 ATM50-A1
1 Indian AMI-50
The World's Greatest Spree: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lU49lL_Xx4s
Want to make a Spree engine go fast? CLICK HERE: LINK

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Re: Getting the Tazland BBK, GEARS, + MLM ran on a dyno

Post by noiseguy » Thu Aug 04, 2016 10:26 am

Someone must make a smaller dyno for smaller bikes / karts.

That chart is about what I'd expect for HP/Torque curve. 15-20 MPH is the sweet spot on Spree for power.

You need some configurations to test. I'll throw in; since I produce filter elements, I can make some different configurations from material on hand. Stock Spree element is 80 PPI and 15mm thick.

I can produce a 80 PPI and 10mm thick element. This should cut some restriction on airflow, but I've no idea if it'll improve things.

Also, a 20 PPI and 15mm element, which is basically just a hair and sawdust screen... not streetable, but a step better than no element.

LMK if interested. I'll make/ship them to you for free if you post up results here.
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Re: Getting the Tazland BBK, GEARS, + MLM ran on a dyno

Post by tazland001 » Thu Aug 04, 2016 12:58 pm

Ohh d*** meatball got you mixed up again.

Nice post wolvert

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Re: Getting the Tazland BBK, GEARS, + MLM ran on a dyno

Post by wwolvert » Thu Aug 04, 2016 1:51 pm

the dyno we use is a fairly large unfortunately the spree I ran isn't mine and I wont be able to experiment with it much I have another spree a 86 but its being restored at the moment but here is a pic of me running a 70 hp banshee from awhile back
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Re: Getting the Tazland BBK, GEARS, + MLM ran on a dyno

Post by noiseguy » Thu Aug 04, 2016 4:15 pm

graphite9 wrote:Dyno jet does make a scooter dyno that's only good to 35hp. But it's still around $9k for one. I'd like to get one but not sure it will be a expense that will pay for itself
That's the issue. It's so small you could only tune go-karts, scooters and sub-100CC bikes... really a limited market.

There's another way you could do this. Rather than roller dyno, use a generator and heat sink to run it. For scooters you'd have to create a sprocket drive, which is just a wheel hub, to run the generator. You vary load through resistance into a heat sink... basically a barrel of water + copper wire.

Old MC dynos used to be built like this... can't find pic of one online, but basically you removed the rear wheel and hook chain to generator.

I'm sure you get the idea. Biggest issue is getting it calibrated, but for A-B tests not required.

Here's a simple version for bicycle. Uses stock motor for generator and light bulb for load. Page 6 explains the calculations, but he's just measuring peak HP.

http://www.instructables.com/id/Bike-Dy ... orsepower/

For comparison, a 5000W generator = 6.7 HP power... so starting point would be finding an old generator, then doing the calculations for an appropriately sized resistor bank. If you measure out power vs. RPM, you can calculate torque (which is power as a function of time.) I'd data log it all into a computer, put on a spreadsheet and run the calculation that way.

I bet you could build the above for less than $300.
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