Getting the Tazland BBK, GEARS, + MLM ran on a dyno

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Re: Getting the Tazland BBK, GEARS, + MLM ran on a dyno

Post by MrJumps »

eclark5483 wrote:Jumps, I think you are confusing me with jakubman1 and his problems..

Like when you said:
3. This section is pulled from your other post where you blew like 2 cylinders.
I have not blown any cylinders. The only heat issue turned out to be a tach pickup wire that was touching the MLM and started to get hot, and there was an issue that we discovered after a couple tests where the tire was rubbing on the kickstand (video 5), and created some heat.

okay my bad on that

As for the "cheap stuff" oil I was talking about, that was just some stuff I picked up to get it initially running with the old piston before the BBK was done. I drained the oil reservoir and added new lines. It is running HONDA GN2 INJECTOR OIL in the pump and in the premix.
well how were we suppost to know this? All you said was ran it on the cheap stuff until the gn2 came in.
As for deleting the pump, I have a very legitimate reason for NOT wanting to do that, and I have a legitimate reason for NOT running a premix in the tank.
so you just said you will not be running premix beside the pump then tok or just as itself? Agin clarification, pictures, charts...
Brent over on the 49cc scoot forums was talking to me about this as well. He suggested a 40:1 ratio might be a better choice and I agreed, but rather then repeat myself again as to why NOT, lemme just quote myself:
That will possibly be something I may look into doing later on down the line. For now though, I'm leaning more towards keeping the pump and zero premix in the tank for one key reason... The Spree is for my son with Autism. I would then be placing him in a situation where he would need to figure out how to do the premix every time he put gas in. A long term goal for my boy is to step him up to a bigger scooter, but at this point, he only wants to drive the Spree. Doing premix for him till he finally gets the courage to try a bigger bike is no big deal, but then I may be faced with a reality that he simply will not do that. In which case, what I ultimately might have to end up doing, is removing the BBK and taking the Spree back down to it's stock configuration.

But again, I can agree with 40:1 as the probable safe bet for the BBK. If the pump is in fact, putting out 50:1 like some have claimed, then it won't be too far away from a 40:1 ideal range, and with that, I'm guessing a good squirt of oil in the premix container should be good to go. I know I have seen some "claim" to get better revs when they delete the pump, while many other's argue that the pump is NOT bad at all and just gets a bad rep.

Pump .vs Premix gets ALOT of debate and alot of pros and cons from people who will swear by one or the other.

I think for the most part, Honda makes a d*** good bike and I have much faith in the pump. If it was a TaoTao 2 stroke with a pump though.... yeah, that pump would have been gone before even taking a first ride.

I just wish there was more data out there for these older scooters so calculating precise premix would be easier. But, one problem at a time is the way to take it. For now, I just need to get the BBK WOT stable and idling correctly.
Also, I don't have charts (yet), but I will get them. Shawn and I both had business to tend to and were kind of limited to what we could do for dyno runs so we chose to do just extremes.

*Lid and filter in place, no holes
*lid off, just filter
*no filter, no lid

I figured those 3 key run types would show what is happening with it at different levels... TOTALLY open to thoughts or suggestions before trying again.

The findings of too much oil, are based on the excessive amount saturating the probe in the muffler. If you think this should be OK, then yeah, would love to hear any thoughts on that as well.

If your planning on going back stock and already have to premix then whay havnt you already pulled the pump for these test. The pump is gonna be the death of the bore, I could garentee but I dont need to do that. Also what exactly are you trying to prove here. That it is a sturdy bore? That it can.run without an airbox? It can run with an airbox withiut holes? Your making this post very confusing. One post is focused on top speed the next is rather it will be good or not for your son as im reading it.
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Re: Getting the Tazland BBK, GEARS, + MLM ran on a dyno

Post by eclark5483 »

Oh I already know that it needs the air box and holes. Have always known that. The only reason I have premixed with the pump is because of the instructions that Taz sends with the BBK. Don't have it with me ATM, but if you look, I think towards the top of the sheet, it talks about doing 50:1 with the pump. Might be 40:1 during break in, then 50:1 after, don't remember right off hand. Then there is the line about 3 1" holes drilled in the air box, or using a pod filter. So many ways to go. The only thing I'm looking for with the dyno runs, is what the exact number of holes needed are and how much oil really needs to be used. And... is it possible that one does not need a premix and can just gas and go??

If I do ultimately have to take the BBK out and go back to a standard bore, I'll still have the MLM and higher gears with none of the hassle. At this point though, I'm just playing a game of "PRESS YOUR LUCK" on a theory.
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Re: Getting the Tazland BBK, GEARS, + MLM ran on a dyno

Post by eclark5483 »

MrJumps wrote:One post is focused on top speed the next is rather it will be good or not for your son as im reading it.
Correct on both counts.. wanna hear the REAL kicker here.

Lemme again quote myself. It was an Email I sent a long while back to Shawn at SS when we were going over the details of the restoration of the bike. Might shed a little light on it all for you.
The Spree, is not for me. It is for my son Shawn. Don't know if you remember meeting him, I brought him up with me once. Shawn is 17 years old, and has Autism. He LOVES the 80's, completely into pacman memorabilia, only likes listening to 80's music. I knew I wanted to restore the Spree for him, but I also wanted to an Iowa theme. At first I was gonna go with a PACMAN theme on it with the graphics and paint, but then it dawned on me that the Iowa college colors, and pacman color are pretty dang close to each other. I know Drew ordered HAWKEYE YELLOW, but I fibbed, and told my son it's "PACMAN YELLOW" AND BLACK.

As you know, my daughter already has a scooter of her own, cool tunes on her mirrors, big trunk I just put on it last week, cool color, personalized plates...etc.. She too, is a special needs kid with Autism. Shawn is a year older then she is, but he is more afraid of the scooter. Kayla can be found zipping around everywhere. Just days before I brought it up to you guys, I had FINALLY gotten to the point where I could get Shawn to drive it. I had planned on flipping it for about $200 since I only paid $75 on it, added a used starter, tossed in a new battery, cleaned the carb, bought an old kickstand for it and got it to at least run. My intentions were to train my kids on it, then get rid of it. I tried Shawn on his sister's scooter, but it scared him more then the Spree. Mainly because it was so big. I'm teaching my kids to be independent for themselves for when I get older and am no longer around. The scooters give them the freedom and independence they would need to do basic things like trips to the store, trips to Wal-Mart. Since Shawn is scared of the bigger scooter, but will drive the Spree, the easiest solution is build the Spree around HIS needs, instead of buying him a new one to use. This is the reason behind the Moto-Glo bluetooth interface for his helmet, The reflective "SPREE" logos on the sides, the reflective tape around the trunk, the trunk it self, the windshield, the license plate frame, the mirrors with built in MP3 player, the hand guards. Basically, ALL THINGS that make him more visible and comfortable while he is riding.

And YES, I absolutely realize that I will lose power with the gear change, I WANT THAT. Not because of top speed, though KNOWING the top speed would be cool for posterity's sake and stats for the guy's on the Spree collectors forum. But because of CRUISE SPEED. On the old engine, you'd have to be rapping that thing wide open throttle just to hit 23 with your head tucked. That's too much revs in my opinion. Hard on the engine. I don't expect Shawn will do any higher then 20mph tops. The extra torque and added HP from the side bleed pipe will pick up that slack. I'm more concerned about keeping up with traffic, not how fast it can go. The MLM muffler is pretty cool... It actually doesn't really do it's best work till it hit's about 12-15mph. That's when you really feel it's accelerating power kick in. I'd want the Spree to be able to do that in case he wants to go to Wal-Mart. I make his sister turn off after the bridge and take the side roads to Wal-Mart. I honestly do not feel comfortable with them in traffic having scooters that bog a bit off the start and through acceleration. That's why I'm bringing my daughters up one of these times for the carb swap and tune up too. I'd like to one day get them up to the 150cc or even 250cc class for even greater independence outside of town if they wanted. Shawn needs that power under him so he learns how to control it.
Hope that helps. :thumbwink:
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Re: Getting the Tazland BBK, GEARS, + MLM ran on a dyno

Post by MrJumps »

If you concerning with traffic dont risk your sons life with a stock or even bbk spree its just too slow for modern car traffic. Back in the 80s these bikes where meant for the slower drivers of the 80s not these new corollas and altimas that fly past you in the left lane and jump over randomly. Get a jog or a elite and derestrict it.at worst get a taotao and AAA coverage.
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Re: Getting the Tazland BBK, GEARS, + MLM ran on a dyno

Post by eclark5483 »

I have an old post on here where I talked about issues I had with Geico getting insurance on the Spree. I ultimately dropped Geico and went with progressive. The issue was with my son not being licensed but driving the Spree on a private lot.

EDIT: Driving on the lot with no license was actually suggested to me by the DMV when I had inquired about a learners permit but found they didn't offer one for just scooters.

I had explained to them (Geico), he is a special needs child, and that the Spree gets used at the Clay County Regional Events Center because it is a HUGE paved space that offers me turns and wide open runs, plus on the North East side, there is a race track that he can use for WOT practice. They didn't want to insure me because of the intended use, so I said SCREW YOU and not only dropped all my motorcycle coverage, but my auto coverage as well and went somewhere else.

My son is at the point now where he is ready to test for his permit. Once he has it, he's either gonna have a hopped up little Spree that my wife and I decided to do for him, or it's gonna be a regular one... either way, you'll find that little boy out on a private lot and race track, cruising by at about 15-20, listening to 80's music on the mp3 mirrors that were put on the scooter. I'll throw all kinds of money at the Spree to make sure it's how he wants it.

I WILL NOT COMPROMISE.
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Re: Getting the Tazland BBK, GEARS, + MLM ran on a dyno

Post by MrJumps »

Okay your not making anything clean you said in a few post back you were gonna either return the b8ke to stock or buy him another hike and now you insist on keeping the slree as it is.
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Re: Getting the Tazland BBK, GEARS, + MLM ran on a dyno

Post by eclark5483 »

Wow dude, you're making it more complicated then it is. Let me try breaking it down for you again... READ CLOSER.

At this point, my son will not drive anything but the Spree, I have tried and tried with other scooters. If you had a special needs kid with autism then you would know how complicated it is to just get the kid on a scooter, much less drive one... Following along so far??

I do want him, (and at this point, it is wishful thinking), to eventually move up to a new scooter like his sister has, or move up to a 150cc class.... still following along??

A larger, more powerful scooter (or even motorcycle) will OBVIOUSLY do better speed and have better pick up then what a Spree can achieve stock... restart if you're still not following along..

In order to get my child to get used to driving at those higher speeds, the Spree needs the BBK/gears... again.. HE WILL NOT DRIVE ANYTHING BUT THE SPREE... keep following along....

Obviously, I am getting older and my son will not have me around to do things like premix for him. HeII, I still have issues with my daughter putting gas in hers... again... I HAVE SPECIAL NEEDS KIDS... 2 of them are anyway..

I want to make it as easy as possible for him to refuel and top up the oil, but still have the added power of the BBK.

I am willing, but only for the sake of letting him learn to go at higher speeds, to use a premix if I HAVE TO.

If my son, after driving the Spree and getting less and less afraid like his sister is, does eventually come around and let me buy him a new scooter instead. ONLY THEN will I delete the oil pump, might even throw in an AF16... but lets not get into that, I don't want to confuse you more.

If he DOES NOT come around to using a more modern bike, and can't get premixing figured out, then I will have pretty much no choice at that point, but to return the bore back to it's original size so he can continue using it.

Look.. I'll openly admit I have plunked down ALOT of money into the Spree. Body plastic restoration, paint, LED conversion, holy grail purchases like an original Spree floor mat and original glove box, etc, etc, etc..

I have spent so much, that I could have EASILY bought 3 brand new TaoTao ATM50-A1's. I already own 2 of them, but the Spree is for my son. Can't really put a price tag on what it means to him to be able to ride it like he wants to.

So I guess, SO WHAT if I end up blowing out the engine?? What's a couple hundred to me when I've already (probably foolishly), plunked down close to 2 grand? And what's it to anybody else?

CAN THAT BE ANY CLEARER??
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Re: Getting the Tazland BBK, GEARS, + MLM ran on a dyno

Post by Meatball »

Nobody should be questioning your intentions. If youre doing a build project for your Son, Friend, Neighbor, Dog or pet Unicorn that's YOUR business. The time, money and effort youre putting into this is helpful to me and plenty of others. I, for one, am very impressed by your diligence and persistence to see this through. Allbeit for a very noble cause, your Son's happiness. Being a Father myself I can relate to the willingness to go to the ends of the Earth to bring joy to my Children. Those that do not have Children will never fully understand but from one devoted Dad to another.... Bravo, Mr eclark....Bravo.
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Re: Getting the Tazland BBK, GEARS, + MLM ran on a dyno

Post by eclark5483 »

Ya know, I see it like this.. My biggest fear in life, is how my special needs kids will be able to handle themselves on their own when mom and dad have finally passed away. I am so VERY VERY proud of both Shawn & Kayla for being able to learn what alot of children with Autism are unable to do... Ride a scooter. I know that since they have learned this very simple skill that everybody on here probably takes for granted. That they will be able to navigate around in the community at least through the driving season, with some type of vehicle that will hold whatever it is they are trying to take home... Food, clothes, toilet paper.. what ever!! Speed limit around Spencer is 25 at most. It only changes across the bridge where it goes to 35, then turns on the hi-way to Wal-Mart where the speed limit is 45. My kids will probably be stuck in Spencer when they are older because of the Autism, so teaching them life at 45 is the only real goal. The reality, is a majority of their lives will be spent at around 15-20 mph on side streets. It is possible to get to Walmart/South Park Mall, etc, by taking side streets, but I want them to not only learn, but be capable of taking on life at 45.

This is also one of the reasons I SCOFF at anybody who suggests I just do a variated AF05 swap, or AF16.

Yeah, AF05, AF16... MUCH BETTER... I GET IT !!!

Would LOVE to try doing one... AND I WILL WHEN I FIND ANOTHER TITLED IOWA SPREE THAT I CAN DO AN ISU THEME ON. I ALREADY HAVE THE AF05 VARIATED READY TO GO.

The Spree will stay as close to stock as I can humanly make it, BECAUSE OF the reality of possibly needing to remove the BBK for my son... Oh yes, I DO have another STOCK PISTON SIZED kit put away should I ever need it.

I feel very fortunate to be in a situation where I have these things and can say "OH WELL" if my pursuit of perfection for my son goes bust.

HeII, already know next on my list of tweaks, will be a new rim for the rear. Found that out purely by accident, would not have discovered it, had we not been using the dyno to spin that rear wheel. I'll just add it to my shopping cart/wish list. I'm already starting a nice collection of Spree parts to replace anything and everything but a titled frame.

Yeah, oil pumps go out... what, you think I don't have more of those??

It actually makes me laugh a little when people question how or why I am doing what I am doing.. Well, I HAVE to be systematical. One of the main things I have learned about kid's with Autism, is they DO NOT like changes very much at all.

So what do you do, when you're son, who is an 80's fan, loves the Spree because it is small and is from the 80's, and wants THAT to be his bike from now on?

The dang thing was $75 bucks!! *??

Here I am, willing to plunk down some serious cash for a Zuma 125, and he wants this hunk of junk relic of a scooter from the 80's??

You have to worry about.. well, what if this goes out.. what if I need that?? It means I need to start a collection of replacement parts since one can't get them from Honda or NAPA. And whatever spare parts I leave for him to get it going again is something goes bad, obviously needs to be things ha can have swapped out my a mechanic. Including a complete engine!!

Hey, if I can be successful at getting a TAZ BBK running without a PREMIX, and can have fun building the perfect beast for my son in the process... then..

CHALLENGE ACCEPTED.
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Re: Getting the Tazland BBK, GEARS, + MLM ran on a dyno

Post by MrJumps »

I am not questioning your intentions i'm asking what your attempting to achieve and here is my answer finally.


"...Hey, if I can be successful at getting a TAZ BBK running without a PREMIX, and can have fun building the perfect beast for my son in the process... then......"

If this is your intention then rebuilding after you blow it up isnt gonna get you anywhere but more money down the drain.

I also get have someone with autism or a mental order in my close family. My little brother is too scared of driving and may never drive. It took almost a year for him to be able to ride a bicycle after a year. I get where your coming from, I know how much things to others can mean to someone with any mental complication/disorder, etc. I am trying to help you, without any input of your findings in detail to where some of the members on the forum can read and actually compare to their findings, your gonna end up blowing a bore up and either reverting to stock or setting up another bbk and trying again. I don't wanna watch you blow countless dollars if we can take our time as a group and take things slow. I know your excited, and rushed to get results, but again I can not stress this enough were here to help. I am sorry if I came off like an *, but that dose not mean I cant have helpful information for you either.

I have seen another few users try to argue that a premix with a oil injector will work and 2 or 3 months later they are on here looking for an stock motor, bbk again, or another motor. Now I get that your son may have issue with premixing, s*** I have issues with it as is. Maybe if you can looking into seeing if the stock aero 80 injector pump arm will work in the spree. maybe someone with both parts on hand could see if it could work and report back. I am just tired of watching people blow hundreds of dollars testing simular things that have already been tested in a way or are known details or highly unsuccessful.
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Re: Getting the Tazland BBK, GEARS, + MLM ran on a dyno

Post by eclark5483 »

FINALLY, a suggestion that appeals to me... here are MY thoughts on that as well.. Yes, I was ALSO thinking Aero 80 parts.. specifically, the AIR BOX. But haven't found much information on it. The pump was also something I was pondering. Putting in components that are made to run with a bigger piston at stock might be the best option. I CAN NOT argue the FACT that a bigger piston, might possibly need more lubrication. Only way to figure it out for sure, is try. If it needs an added premix, then I need to find an exact that I can show him to measure and pour into the gas can.

EDIT: maybe even a small vial he can keep in the trunk for gas station runs!!

If I can help him get past that task, then I'm all in.
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Re: Getting the Tazland BBK, GEARS, + MLM ran on a dyno

Post by eclark5483 »

So anyways, to get a bit back more on topic of the BBK. Brent at 49cc, was telling me I shouldn't try finding ideal stoich at WOT top speed, which I'm actually pretty OK with. The BBK is not broken in after all, and in the next run, which will be performed with 100% fuel and just a pump, I'm just a bit uncomfortable running it at high RPM's with less lubrication.. Here's what I'm thinking. With the MLM, the bike will now top out at around 11,000 RPM, of course it's powerband will drop before that happens. I'm thinking of limiting throttle to 1/2, or 5500 rpm and find optimal stoich (I.E. INCREASING HOLE SIZE LITTLE BY LITTLE) there.

EDIT: One thing I am VERY curious to find out, is how much stoich changes when you are running less lubrication and 100% fuel in the tank. I already know what too much lubrication gets me.

OF COURSE I don't WANT TO blow the BBK, but I do still want to test different conditions.. and again, I will get the charts after it's all done, just gotta have Shawn E-mail me the data, no biggy. I appreciate people who will help me out very much, but to reciprocate, I want to help other's out too. Especially TAZ who has revised instructions on his kits before. No disrespect to him intended, I wanna see him sell more kits with ZERO complaints because it was done right the first time. Would LOVE to do all this testing by deleting the pump for everyone on the forums, but, honestly can't do that for anybody ATM, sorry.

But so far, what has been found to be a variable is: 64:1+pump=Too much lubrication. Taz kit instructions say 50:1 with pump= THIS IS WRONG!!!! LUBRICATION OVERKILL..Says 32:1 premix with deleted pump for break in. I can't speak for that as being tested, but If my (theoretical) lubrication of 33-34:1 is showing signs of saturation, and others seem to be having similar instances, I think REEXAMINING that lubrication is a very important step besides the air box holes. And again, what works for me, might not be the results someone else sees. But...

What works for me, might very well work well for someone else. I absolutely want to share documented results that I have gotten doing different things. For that, I am grateful for SS Cycleworks helping me get it all figured out with the Dyno.. err... till I see the bill. :peace:
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Re: Getting the Tazland BBK, GEARS, + MLM ran on a dyno

Post by Ultraliner »

This is some gold research you are delving into here eclarke, kudos to you ;)

Regarding hole size increase for the airbox... I'm thinking along the line of existing airbox inlet orifice being Xcm2 at 50cc, the BBK is 68cc or 36% larger than the stock cylinder... Maybe making the total modified air intake orifice volume 36% more than stock would be something to consider?

I've been following your thread and have done some very limited investigation with my setup. Airbox currently has 2x 20mm holes punched through the lid. Scoot starts and rides fine but covering one of them up provides no obvious decrease in performance, however covering both causes it to not rev out properly.

I'm in agreement that a hole is required but I think you'll find it'll be fairly small. If I get some time i'll work out the area of the stock intake orifice and work out what 36% more of that will be ;)
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Re: Getting the Tazland BBK, GEARS, + MLM ran on a dyno

Post by Meatball »

We can all agree that the undetermined amount of back pressure is needed for the reeds to pulse correctly. Im sure theres a gauge/tool out there that measures this resistance somehow. What if this amount could be increased by having a foam air filter with(more dense)smaller holes? Or maybe the same foam we currently use but just thicker or doubled up?

I say this because Ive been playing with a pod filter on my Elite motor lately which has much less back pressure than the stock air box. It doesn't run right and seems very lean because of the reduced filter resistance. Im sure you've all seen people remedy this by taping a pod filter up except leaving the end open or even capping it with a water bottle. One problem Ive experienced with an open filter is when I let off the throttle from WOT is its takes a long time for the RPM's to return to idle. Like it needs that back pressure to calm down. I don't have a CHT hooked up but its certainly acting lean.

So, what if adding holes in the airbox lid also requires an increase in back pressure? Just a thought.
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Re: Getting the Tazland BBK, GEARS, + MLM ran on a dyno

Post by eclark5483 »

Ultraliner wrote:This is some gold research you are delving into here eclarke, kudos to you ;)

Regarding hole size increase for the airbox... I'm thinking along the line of existing airbox inlet orifice being Xcm2 at 50cc, the BBK is 68cc or 36% larger than the stock cylinder... Maybe making the total modified air intake orifice volume 36% more than stock would be something to consider?
The existing inlet is what I was pondering on last night. I was looking at images (stolen from eBay), and was thinking of this area here highlighted in red:
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