How To Build A Fast Elite! Build and Tune info (56k beware)

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NEW COMBO

Post by burnt_toast » Thu May 21, 2009 10:19 am

NEW COMBO for the warmer weather: (changes in red) time to upgrade trans

Using 28mm OKO carb:

Pilot = 55
Main = 142
Needle = clip in middle
A/F = ~1.75turns out


Trans:

Lathe lightened Keli with NEW 4.8g KOSO Rollers x6 for 28.8g total
NEW 2k Clutch Center spring
NEW 2k Jog style grab springs in stock clutch

Malossi 7:1 straight cut primaries, FRESH gear oil change 9.7k miles

RESULTS:

This combo is BANANAS! Good get up and go launch, revs out a bit much on up to 20mph but then cruising and hitting the throttle at any speed gets you RIGHT back into the powerband, just awesome for taking sweeping turns and powering through out of them :D
'87 Elite SE50 -125cc, sleeper swap ratrod
'93 Elite SR50 -65cc mildmod, In Progress
'98 Elite S SA50P -Black Bee- 50cc, 9:1
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Post by Arnadanoob » Tue May 26, 2009 7:30 am

What pipe you running? I've never had the need to go below 32g using a PG long... under 30g is a little too light IMO. Mini-stroke cranks don't tend to be very strong so make sure to watch for over-reviness. Otherwise good work on your project, glad you having fun with it.

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Re: How To Build A Fast Elite! Build and Tune info (56k beware)

Post by DandyDan » Thu May 28, 2009 12:51 pm

burnt_toast wrote:I always keep an eye on temps and haven't had it ever go above 400F, usually 350-380F when wot for long distances.
Is 400F+ dangerous territory? What is the highest temp you'd want to be cruising at for hours at a time?
Sweet site with info on Honda's and tons of other scooters: http://www.MotorScooterGuide.net

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Re: How To Build A Fast Elite! Build and Tune info (56k beware)

Post by djknitex » Thu May 28, 2009 7:56 pm

How much did the whole thing cost? I'm thinking about tuning mine to this
1989 Honda Elite E 49cc

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Re: How To Build A Fast Elite! Build and Tune info (56k beware)

Post by Arnadanoob » Fri May 29, 2009 7:01 am

DandyDan wrote:
burnt_toast wrote:I always keep an eye on temps and haven't had it ever go above 400F, usually 350-380F when wot for long distances.
Is 400F+ dangerous territory? What is the highest temp you'd want to be cruising at for hours at a time?
On normal or mildly modded bikes, yes this is playing on the edge of danger. On modded bikes it's a little more complicated because it depends on the quality of parts, jetting, oil ratio, oil type (Castrol 2t vs Castor 927 which are nothing like each other) will all play a role at whether the engine will survive in the long run.

250F to 300F is about normal for most normal bikes, with brief spikes into the 325F range is fine.

350-400F are usually for the modded bikes that are running Castor oils running no less than 32:1.

In normal street riding that is around 20-40mph, the temps should be around 250-300F.

If you intend on holding the throttle wide open for miles and miles, you'll need to start thinking about jetting the bike so that the temps stay around 300F. This usually means you'll be jetting big (main jet) in order to allow the fuel to keep the temps down. Bikes tuned this way will tend to be a little lazy feeling when you zip around town short distances like we do in Hawaii where we hold it open WOT for only 15-30 or so seconds before we need to slow down, only to repeat it over again.

My personal bike has a 72cc Polini Corsa (stock stroke) ported for midrange power (street riding). My temps sit at around 200-250F in speed zones ranging 25-35mph. It jumps up to about 300F when I cruise it at 50mph and spikes to 350F at wide open under load, but never goes above it.
Reliable and dependable tuning from 15+ years of experience.

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Re: How To Build A Fast Elite! Build and Tune info (56k beware)

Post by DandyDan » Fri May 29, 2009 2:30 pm

Thanks....that's very helpful. When I mod my next 2-stroke I'm going to grab one of those cylinder head temp gauges and do it right.
Sweet site with info on Honda's and tons of other scooters: http://www.MotorScooterGuide.net

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Re:

Post by burnt_toast » Mon Jun 01, 2009 12:17 pm

Arnadanoob wrote:What pipe you running? I've never had the need to go below 32g using a PG long... under 30g is a little too light IMO. Mini-stroke cranks don't tend to be very strong so make sure to watch for over-reviness. Otherwise good work on your project, glad you having fun with it.
PG Long bro, and trust me I've tuned CVT's for years and have tried dozen of combos right at 32g is perfect for this particular setup, less works but overrevs more doesnt downshift as well. I'm back up to 32g btw, the 4.8 koso's are killer for low speed thrills but too rev happy for normal riding

and to everyone else arnadanoob's temp notes are pretty spot on, good stuff
'87 Elite SE50 -125cc, sleeper swap ratrod
'93 Elite SR50 -65cc mildmod, In Progress
'98 Elite S SA50P -Black Bee- 50cc, 9:1
'01 Vino, naked racer/showboat

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Re: How To Build A Fast Elite! Build and Tune info (56k beware)

Post by Arnadanoob » Tue Jun 02, 2009 6:41 am

I understand what you're saying BT, but mathematically the bike is tuned to the pipe, which has nothing to do with the rest of your setup. The PG Long is a very easy to tune pipe and is perhaps the most common pipe in Hawaii (mostly due to the fact that there's not much of anything else anymore). Unless you're targetting to hit 10.5 to 11k rpms which I can guarantee your setup won't be making any power in that range, revving it that high for example would mean you'd be tuning on the declination portion of the power curve for that pipe. Getting back to tuning to the pipe...

The variator rollers (weights) are the key to tuning in this manner during the initial take off. If you use less weight in the rollers, it's more than likely that you're using a softer center spring. If you did make the mistake of using lighter weights with too strong a center spring, you'll have a whiny engine revving up really high, great for steep hills that won't have any top end speed. Conversely if you made the mistake of using too much weight at the front pulley and too soft a spring, you'll lug, bog, and have very dull power and your pipe will never see the airflow it needs to fill up, pressurizing the pipe's internals to create the necessary backpressure to keep more of the fresh intake charge from blowing out the exhaust port. A lower rev pipe fills up quickly which means it doesn't need higher rpms to put the bike into the power zone, like a V8 Typhoon pipe, this is why you can get away with heavier weights. PG Long is a very high rev pipe, needs a lot of airflow before the pipe pressurizes before backpressure can be formed to hold more of the intake charge in the cylinder before being blown out, this is why it needs less weights to help keep the crank rpms higher.

Tuning the rear section (rear pulley and center spring) determines rate of acceleration (thus how hard you pull while you increase speed in mph/kph) and also the rate in which it gets back into the power zone when you punch it from 1/8 throttle to 1/2 or 3/4 throttle, even WOT. If you think about this in car terms, the idea is that when you accelerate, you're always in the meat of the power zone, but when you're cruising you might be below it at lower rpms, but as soon as you punch it, it should kick you back into the power zone instantly without delay and pull hard (only limited to your gearing ratio).

There's a few things I'm confused though that doesn't appear to make sense, I know you're running ministroke and I've built and tuned at least 50 bikes with similar setups like yours and I've never had the need to go under 36g on a Keli Pulley with ZX trans, 1500 center spring (black) or 10% Daytona Red. You're using a 2000 center spring? That's like a Daytona Gold (20%) and your bike shouldn't have any speed above 45mph if you ran that kind of combo (2000 center with 30g), which is completely confusing me. 2000 center springs should be very resistant towards allowing the belt to be drawn in so it should almost be in a lower gear all the time, which kills top speed. The counter to that is to increase the weights a little to allow the belt to ride higher at the front since it's being restricted by a tough spring at the rear. I guess if it's working for you than more power to you, but it is very strange though. Perhaps you're using the stock honda trans and not a ZX maybe?

There's a lot of mathematics behind tuning bikes correctly, even in Hawaii we have a ton of guys running super lightweight trans setups with any combination of (lathe lightened Keli pullies), aluminum driveface, lightened mag, super light clutch and lightweight clutch bell without understanding the effects and applications of each. If you intend on riding long distances at a steady speed, there's absolutely no reason to use any lightweight trans parts as it'll actually hurt you in the long run.

For example, when a bike is in motion, it undergoes changes to its level of kinetic and potential energy. Lightweight moving trans components will not be able to store as much energy while it is spinning and will want to slow down at the earliest possible convenience. This means if you went with lightweight everything versus someone who's using stock driveface, unlightened Keli pulley, stock clutch bell, heavy/stock clutch, your engine will be working harder to maintain that high speed. Parts with larger mass will be able to store energy better, which means like a bowling ball that starts to roll down the street, won't be looking to slow down nearly as easily as a volleyball when it starts to encounter resistance. The bowling ball's real problem is getting up to speed. In mopeds, the lighter components often help for the shorter rides which involves more sharp acceleration from 1 corner to the next where your rpms vary a lot, it does not help those who hold it wide open for miles and miles, in fact it will hurt your mileage and will wear out your motor faster than without those lightweight parts. The total mass (weight in crude terms) of the moving trans parts is perhaps the most overlooked, underestimated, often misunderstood portion of the bike. A bike setup that almost mandates the need for lightweight trans parts are those who are using chamber pipes, mostly due to its powerful "spikey" power curve which often results in a huge kick when the pipe's powerband is reached.

This skews off a little but I wanted to add in why clutch springs (not to be confused for the center spring) acts differently in heavy, medium and light clutches. A heavy clutch has moving parts that are higher in mass, which means when it spins it's going to want to open up and touch the clutch bell surface more eagerly than a clutch using ultra light moving parts. This means you could use a green polini clutch spring in a heavy and light clutch and it'll seem like the clutch is engaging sooner with the heavy clutch than the light clutch.
Reliable and dependable tuning from 15+ years of experience.

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Re: How To Build A Fast Elite! Build and Tune info (56k beware)

Post by Arnadanoob » Tue Jun 02, 2009 11:16 pm

I keep forgetting that BT isn't in Hawaii and I've overlooked something major. I believe he's running the stock S trans (which is a much smaller pulley in the rear) which is actually quite good for the higher speed runs but suffers from a lack of lower gearing variations because the pulley is so small, it cannot shift into the lower gears fast enough (compared to a ZX trans) to have the same kind of kick during acceleration when, for example... you punch it wide open from 35mph. Stock S trans setups are incredibly rare in Hawaii as almost everyone is using the ZX trans.

BT's setup with the stock S trans requires a stronger center spring since the belt moves in and out of the pulley a lot less and must be controlled from slipping too fast into the higher gears (which will result in his bike bogging). In order for his bike to accelerate, the rear pulley has to be kept pushed together much longer meaning the 2000 spring (20%) will not allow the belt to be driven into it very easily, forcing it to ride much higher for much longer before it allows the belt to be drawn into the pulley to the higher gears.

A ZX trans is much larger, the belt moves up and down a much greater distance so the pulley often moves out and back together a lot more than the S trans. This means the center spring will be softer to allow for the belt to use the much lower gearing AND use the higher gearing. Center springs used for this setup will often vary depending on what's being used, from stock center spring rates (0%), 10% (1000) or 15% (1500).
Reliable and dependable tuning from 15+ years of experience.

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Re: How To Build A Fast Elite! Build and Tune info (56k beware)

Post by burnt_toast » Wed Jun 03, 2009 6:33 pm

correct on that last post still using S trans NOT the ZX, the bike still has plenty of bite with the S trans and it has shifted just as I wanted for the entire build.

Keep in mind this setup has been PERFECT for me and I am aware of cvt tuning, I haven't built 50 bikes but enough to play around with cvt tuning for many hours total.

32g on my setup, with lathe lightened keli vari and 2center has netted over 70mph gps top speeds numerous times before. I'm aware I don't "need" the lightened pulley but overall it has worked great for close to 5,000miles which seems pretty good to me. BTW just got a SEF plate from VT and interested to see how that performs over keli ramp.

Going to 36g wouldn't allow it to downshift midthrottle, 32g however has been perfect for launch, cruise, and top speed. getting back into the powerband without hesitation at any speed

Arnadnoob thank you very much for the info, I have been aware of most of it but you have explained it in quite some detail. If you don't mind I'd like to post it on my blog as it would be useful to keep record of.
'87 Elite SE50 -125cc, sleeper swap ratrod
'93 Elite SR50 -65cc mildmod, In Progress
'98 Elite S SA50P -Black Bee- 50cc, 9:1
'01 Vino, naked racer/showboat

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Re: How To Build A Fast Elite! Build and Tune info (56k beware)

Post by 808BMW » Sat Jun 06, 2009 3:04 pm

That SEF ramp plate is action, I need to pick one up.
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Re: How To Build A Fast Elite! Build and Tune info (56k beware)

Post by jeremydde » Sat Aug 01, 2009 7:17 pm

Where do you have your CHT probe mounted on your head? I have the koso CHT sparkplug adapter mounted with mine and the highest I've ever seen in years is 127 degree C (260F). I run a 132 main and 48 pilot in my OKO 28mm. I am curious to know if I am running far too rich, or we are measuring in different locations.

Here is what I'm running:
Image
Image

Jeremy
2000 Honda Dio
Malossi 72cc Bore
28mm Oko Carb 45 Pilot & 132 Main
Phongeer Long
9 to 1 Gears
Parmakit Variator
1500 RPM contra spring
Kuka Clutch w/Polini green springs
Koso Digital Tachometer w/CHT

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Re: How To Build A Fast Elite! Build and Tune info (56k beware)

Post by burnt_toast » Sun Aug 02, 2009 3:57 am

808BMW wrote:That SEF ramp plate is action, I need to pick one up.
got one in my 98 S and LOVE it, its one hella awesome mod for 15 bucks :)

jeremy,
yup I have mounted at sparkplug as well

I've also just recently added a Vapor Trailtech and seeing same temps (see blog in sig, a few posts back)

If yours runs good at those settings dont mess with it, but if plug is black and sooty then the lower temp would verify rich condition
'87 Elite SE50 -125cc, sleeper swap ratrod
'93 Elite SR50 -65cc mildmod, In Progress
'98 Elite S SA50P -Black Bee- 50cc, 9:1
'01 Vino, naked racer/showboat

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Re: How To Build A Fast Elite! Build and Tune info (56k beware)

Post by elite_dub » Mon Feb 01, 2010 6:07 am

WOW arnadanoob spreading the knowledge wish there were people like you in the Hawaii Forums there are hardly if anybody that shares this kind of knowledge in there sad but true ...

where are you located mr. arnadanoob and can I ask you some ??'s ..
:2thumbs:

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Re: How To Build A Fast Elite! Build and Tune info (56k beware)

Post by Snowman94 » Sat Apr 24, 2010 12:30 am

Has anyone ever used a bigger variator and lathed it down to be thinner to clear the case housing? Just wondering

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