Stock Oil Pump Delivery Ratio

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JJ Joseph
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Re: Stock Oil Pump Delivery Ratio

Post by JJ Joseph » Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:35 am

paulpauly7 wrote:my malossi 47mm blah blah . . .
He wasn't asking about your hot rod scoot! Nor was he asking about my Dio. He was asking about a "stock" sa50.

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Re: Stock Oil Pump Delivery Ratio

Post by 7m-iata » Wed Nov 07, 2012 4:22 pm

I've held 50+ several times with a custom pipe and open air filter with my 89 elite lx when it was still stock suspension etc. I weigh 115 lbs and it was a slight very long downhill speed limit of 50 mph and I always kept up with traffic and was passed very slowly if at all. No gps verification but I've driven that road 1000 times with my car and everyone does 50-55 very rarely you get someone doing 45-50. I had a 3.5-10 back wheel also but thats not a real big difference.

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Re: Stock Oil Pump Delivery Ratio

Post by JJ Joseph » Wed Nov 07, 2012 4:47 pm

7m-iata wrote:I've held 50+ several times with a custom pipe and open air filter
Give it up! That's not a stock unit.

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Re: Stock Oil Pump Delivery Ratio

Post by 7m-iata » Wed Nov 07, 2012 6:27 pm

The case is in the for sale section, no porting or anything done to it. I replaced the stock piston in it one time at 10,400 miles then at 11,700 I put in the kymco engine. I never messed with it besides the pipe and filter unless it physically broke. I have no reason to lie about it I'm not trying to prove anything nor am I saying I have the fastest scoot or anything, but yes on a stock-ish sa50 af05e I have gotten to and held 50+ mph, not on flat ground but on a very long very smooth slightly downhill road. I don't wanna become THAT GUY that can't back things up with pics, but I never had the balls or at the time the interest in taking a pic of the speed. At that time the scoot was more of a necessity than a fun vehicle as I had JUST blown the engine in my DD and was using it for a 35 mile round commute daily.

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Re: Stock Oil Pump Delivery Ratio

Post by JJ Joseph » Wed Nov 07, 2012 8:48 pm

That's just the point. A stock engine runs at a max rpm of about 8800rpm. As soon as you put a tuned pipe and/or a large bore carburetor on it, you're increasing the max rpm (and speed), and you'll blow the engine sooner. The higher the rpm, the shorter the engine life. That's why you need more oil. It's the higher rpm from the pipe that does it, not the BBK. Of course, if you run with the expansion pipe at not more than the stock max rpm of 8800 - 9000rpm, you're engine will last the same as a stock engine (i.e. no pipe on it). But who can resist running at WOT? It's a hoot, sure, but only until it grenades!

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Re: Stock Oil Pump Delivery Ratio

Post by 7m-iata » Wed Nov 07, 2012 9:08 pm

I only ran at wot when I needed to and still same story but now I premix just for the piece of mind to know that my pump can't fail again and lose another cyl/piston. Still everyone says not just from theory but personal experience that the stock oil pump doesn't agree with bore kits, not just on the hondas but on every 2T I've ever seen. It's awesome that yours is working well with the stock oil pump, it would be nice to not have to premix every time I fill up, but I'd rather not get stranded miles from home with a siezed engine as I have in the past.

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Re: Stock Oil Pump Delivery Ratio

Post by JJ Joseph » Wed Nov 07, 2012 10:13 pm

7m-iata wrote: I'd rather not get stranded miles from home with a siezed engine as I have in the past.
That's only from running at higher than stock rpms. It's nothing to do with the oil pump. Keep your rpms down and your stock oil pump will manage just fine. Every 2-stroke dirt bike racer knows this. When you run at 13,000+ rpm, you have to rebuild after every race. Racers buy pistons by the carton. I'm not especially "lucky" at running a 85cc BBK for years with a stock oil pump. I just keep the rpms below limits.

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Re: Stock Oil Pump Delivery Ratio

Post by 7m-iata » Wed Nov 07, 2012 10:17 pm

I don't purposely over rev I do it to keep from getting hit while driving around town lol. I'm currently trying to find some gears to fit my minarelli clone, but until then it'll def see higher than stock revs, especially since thats where my pipe makes its power.

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Re: Stock Oil Pump Delivery Ratio

Post by alexfleury » Mon Sep 02, 2013 9:27 pm

I did the "zip-tie" mod except I used safety wire. I opened up the lever about 2/3 of the way. In the first two tanks I used a total of 1.8 gal of gas and it took 6 ounces to refill the tank. This was almost all WOT riding. I'm going to leave it this way and add i ounce of oil each time I fill up.

I will keep checking and see if the consumption varies any.
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Re: Stock Oil Pump Delivery Ratio

Post by JJ Joseph » Mon Sep 02, 2013 10:18 pm

It's also useful to remember that a direct-drive 2 stroke doesn't disengage the drive train when you close the throttle. The engine is still blasting along at 10,000rpm but WITHOUT oil. Without an oil pump, the engine depends on the oil in the fuel, and when you close throttle you're cutting off the fuel & oil supply. The engine goes suddenly lean & dry. This is especially hard on the expensive bits like the crankshaft bearings. The oil pump on a modern 2T keeps oil flowing. If you remove the pump on a CVT scooter, you will have no oil flowing when you close the throttle and your engine will still be screaming along at max rpm.

If you're into road racing and don't like oil pumps, then you need a scooter with a standard transmission & clutch.

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Re: Stock Oil Pump Delivery Ratio

Post by paulpauly7 » Mon Sep 02, 2013 10:33 pm

so jj explain how does the engine keep running if when you close the throttle all fuel and oil are shut off .Think about it that doent make sense does it jj .Fuel and oil enter the engine through your pilot jet when throttle is closed if your jetting is correct then you will be fine .JJ you info is flawed and useless
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Re: Stock Oil Pump Delivery Ratio

Post by JJ Joseph » Tue Sep 03, 2013 12:58 am

paulpauly7 wrote:so jj explain how does the engine keep running if when you close the throttle all fuel and oil are shut off .Think about it that doent make sense does it jj .Fuel and oil enter the engine through your pilot jet when throttle is closed if your jetting is correct then you will be fine .JJ you info is flawed and useless
I'm assuming that you're new to high-performance 2 strokes, so you need a little help. Your engine isn't "running" with the throttle closed. It is windmilling - without oil. Your pilot jet is maybe 1/3 the size of your main jet. At over 10,000rpm, parts of your engine are almost red-hot. It might not make sense to YOU, but this forum isn't about YOU. Here's what a Yamaha RS racer says in a racing forum:"With premix: No fuel to the engine = NO Lubrication to the engine. You run out of fuel on the overrun into a corner with premix, so you better be fast with that clutch lever. There is a way you can always spot the old two stroke racers: he has that one finger on the clutch lever, always." Modern scooters don't have a clutch lever to save you, so you need to keep your oil pump.

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Re: Stock Oil Pump Delivery Ratio

Post by paulpauly7 » Tue Sep 03, 2013 2:09 am

ok well all my bikes run premix and run perfect i keep nice cool temps .I do alot of uphill and down hill at high speeds .With thousands and thousands of miles on my motors and all running great any many others would say the same .So you run your bikes your way and ill run my way
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ZX disk brake
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Scorpion pipe
8.44 to 1
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92 yz125, 94 crm250

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Re: Stock Oil Pump Delivery Ratio

Post by yamahauler660r » Tue Sep 03, 2013 10:08 am

If the crank is turning the oil pump is flowing. The cable only increases the flow rate.
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Re: Stock Oil Pump Delivery Ratio

Post by LMH » Tue Sep 03, 2013 10:50 am

Your engine isnt "windmilling" its running, our scooters do NOT use cylinder shut down technology like you think JJ. Yes it runs leaner on oil thats obvious, but it does not stop flowing unless your carb runs out of fuel. Simple concepts about simple engines, I say go ahead and run an oil pump on your high performance 2 stroke scooter and see how long those bearings or sleave last in the pump at 10k+ rpms when its designed for sub 8k. That will be a nice ride, all of a sudden the pump locks up and shears the crank splines and poof you have nice slivers of metal all over and ruining your engine. Good idea, I think Ill swap all my pumps back on my engines.
P.S. Dont follow advice from someone who doesnt own a performance scooter. If he did he would understand its a CVT and when releasing the throttle its much like throwing it into neutral, or hitting the clutch. your engine just doesnt stay at 10k rpms when you release the throttle silly.

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