Unusual problem with spree...

JF · Post by JF » Fri Nov 25, 2005 9:48 am

Hi there,

This is my first post here, so that's fun. But anyways, here it goes;

My 1985 modified spree has been working great for awhile, but recently it's having this issue with warm restarting. It'll start up sometimes when it's cold, but if it dies or you shut it off after it has warmed up, it won't start. It'll turn over just fine, it gets fuel, and it fires, but it doesn't seem to fire fast enough or something. The carb has been cleaned VERY thouroughly(every last hole and orfice), the compression reads at @127psi, and the spark plugs I have tried all have a good consistent bluish spark. I did notice that if I put a good clean plug in there, get it running for about 10min, then take it out, it's already all black and sotty. At first I thought it was either too much oil or fuel, but after thouroughly checking into them, that doesn't seem to be the case. I have tried tuning the carb many times, tried different plugs, even testing the various ignition parts on the spree, but to no avail. If anyone has some suggestions on what to do next, I would greatly appreciate it. Remember to think "outside the box" on this one...

thanks,
JF

FastSpree1 · Post by **FastSpree1** » Fri Nov 25, 2005 10:52 am

well if your plugs keep coming out black. Then your running to rich. If they are coming out black with oil covering them then one of the piston rings are shope beacuse its getting oil fouled. Though you said it has 127 psi compression your rings should be fine. my suzuki did that did you drill holes in the air box and rejet it? the could be the problem if you did my suzuki had the same plug problem.

hondaman · Post by **hondaman** » Fri Nov 25, 2005 1:34 pm

Check to see if your muffler is plugged or almost plugged with carbon buildup. When it is running can you feel good exhaust pressure coming out of tip of muffler end? You could also check buildup by your exhaust port where muffler is attatched.

JF · Post by JF » Fri Nov 25, 2005 4:12 pm

Hmm, good point, and I thought that at first too, but I just found out something today. It decided to not start this morning, so I checked to see if the plug was getting spark. It was quite wet, but even when it is dried off, the spark isn't as good as it should be. So I decided to see if it could jump a larger gap, and it does, but it's a reddish spark. It just started to do this, so I'm thinking that the coil or the high tension wire is bad, or it might even be the CDI or the wiring in-between. I will try to post back when I get the replacement parts I need in. Thanks for the advice guys

.

JF

Post by **noiseguy** » Sun Nov 27, 2005 11:08 pm

Check your coil resistance, and the screw-in connection b/t the spark plug cap and coil wire. You may want to unscrew, trim the wire, then put it back together.

Check your main jet and airbox. You say "modified Spree," what did you do?

You're either running rich or oil-fouling. Are you using 2-stroke injector oil?

JF · Post by JF » Mon Nov 28, 2005 11:27 pm

Hi noiseguy,

Well, so far I have; smoothed out the intake manifold restriction, switched to a cone type "K and N" style air cleaner, came up with a somewhat crude but functional way of adjusting(richer or leaner) the now slightly drilled out main jet, decarbonized the top-end and exhaust, raised the compression from @110psi to @127psi, purchased a range of brand new NGK spark plugs, and did the "pulley mod". The highest top speed I got it to was @36mph, which isn't too shabby, so it's not like it was running really bad. It's just that now it won't even start, and I'm getting the feeling that it's an intermittent problem with the coil or even the CDI unit possibly.

I know it can't be the wiring, because I just tore the entire bike down to litteraly the frame, checked the entire wire harness for issues, cleaned everything up, and finished putting it back together again today. And it probably isn't the carb thats running too rich, because I tried just putting a little bit of fuel in the intake(without the carb installed),and turned it over, but nothing happened. I had the pipe off of the bike so I could hear if it would ignite the fuel, but I didn't even hear a pop. And when I took the plug out, it was a bit wet, and still pretty cool. A similar scenario was attempted many times with different fuel amounts, starting fluid, different plugs, with/without the carb, etc, etc...

So I believe that there is fuel getting to the engine, and there is sufficient compression to create a good condition for ignition, but that seems to be the problem; no ignition. And the testing was done with brand new gaped plugs, that could get a spark outside of the chamber, where atmospheric pressures are much less. But when it is installed, under the much greater pressures of the engine's compression, there must be some short or overload that takes place in the coil. I did try cutting off a little bit of the high tension wire and screwed on the cap, but it didn't make any difference. I even tried pushing just the cable onto the tip of the plug, but yet again, no difference. So since it's probably the cable and/or the coil, and since I'm running at a higher compression ratio, I decided to splurge and buy a high voltage performance coil. Oh buy the way, I am using Royal Purple TCW-3 two stroke oil(sutible for injector or pre-mix), and I did check both the primary and secondary coil resistance, both seemed to check out fine. I'll let you know when the new coil is installed, and whether it works or not.

Thank you for your ideas and suggestions guys, I really appreciate all the help I can get.

JF

Post by **noiseguy** » Tue Nov 29, 2005 9:13 pm

What number drill bit did you use? I've got a chart posted that lists bit #'s to jet sizes. Let us know what jet you're running with that pod filter.

Are you getting a blue spark from the plug, or a red one? Blue is what you want. Compression of 130 or so should be fine with the stock system; lots of guys are running in that range.

Everything else sounds OK. I've never gotten a pod fiter to work on mine, though others have. If you have a stock 65 or 68 jet, I'd advise putting that in and rerunning the stock airbox (if it's not hacked) to see if that fixes the issue.

Depending on the amount shaved from the pulley, you might want to run a 1" longer belt. This helps maintain the stock pulley pressure on the rear clutch.

JF · Post by JF » Tue Nov 29, 2005 11:38 pm

For the first question, well, I didn't use a drill bit to enlarge it. Instead, I used a very small, slim cone-shaped grinding tip on my dremel tool to enlarge a spare 65# jet gradually until it was just large enough for my "adjustment screw" to work properly. It isn't the most efficient setup in the world, but it does work, and is very handy for sudden climate changes and for tweaking the top-end power while it's running. The pod filter I'm using is actually one that I had bought online for a moped of mine, along with a rubber seal/o-ring type of thing that I got at auto-zone. It fits fairly well without any modification to the existing air-box, which is a plus.

The average spark I'm getting is a light blue, almost yellow spark with a normally gaped brand new plug. But when I raised the gap on another plug to well over twice the normal gap and turned over the engine, it's more reddish. That leads me yet again to the probable conclusion that the coil and/or the cable is bad. At least I know, with roughly 85% certainty that the coil or wire is at fault somehow.

Oh and I did try reverting to the stock air-box setup for a little bit, readjusting and re-tuning, but it didn't seem to do anything differently. I only wish it was that simple and cheap of a fix, but at least I have a slight warm fuzzy felling knowing that the pod filter can remain. I also checked the by-starter, because recently I repaired it, though it seems to function quite normally.

Thank you mucho for the help so far, and I hope to get my new coil soon so I can go from there. Oh and if anyone needs some pictures of something on my bike, let me know and I'll do the best I can to get them on here.

JF

Farfignugin · Post by **Farfignugin** » Wed Nov 30, 2005 4:10 pm

widening?? if the spark is yellowish and widening it made it red, then wouldnt you make a smaller gap? not a wider gap??

JF · Post by JF » Thu Dec 01, 2005 10:14 am

I did that to test the voltage of the coil, not to actually utilize it in the combustion chamber. If the coil can make a nice bluish spark jump a gap roughly twice as big as the stock gap, then thats a fairly good indication that your coil and/or high tension cable is in good shape. If it's more of a reddish color, then there might be a fault in the cable or the coil. Even if I did try installing that over-gaped plug on the top-end, the piston would end up smacking the tip anyway. Sorry I wasn't too clear on what I meant there, the only thing that test did for me is it gave me a little more assurance that the coil/cable is at fault.

JF

JF · Post by JF » Fri Dec 02, 2005 3:14 pm

Well, I just got the new ignition coil in, but yet again it didn't make any difference

. By now I'm running out of options; It has to be either the CDI unit or the stator. Can't test a CDI effectively, so I tested the resistance levels on the wires coming from the stator and the pulser unit. Everything is within acceptable parameters, except one; the alternator exciter coil. It isn't real far off, but the reading I got was @714 ohms, when it is supposed to be between 750-1200 ohms. Can anyone explain what this might mean, and whether or not I need a new stator?

Thanks,
JF

JF · Post by JF » Sat Dec 03, 2005 1:17 pm

If the CDI unit that should be arriving soon doesn't work, then I'm going to need a new stator plate. Although at this rate, I could buy a used Elite 50 engine, install it, and maybe fix a lot of issues. If I would like to go that route instead, I need to know if the 1987 Elite 50 engine would bolt up and work properly with a spree. Has anyone done this before, and if so, how many parts and/or modifications are needed to get it done?

Thanks,
JF

Post by **noiseguy** » Mon Dec 05, 2005 9:10 am

Two different questions:

1) On the Spree ignition: Someone (ferchja?) went through a lot of issues with his charging/ignition system. Do a search back on that topic. Being in TX wire corrosion shouldn't be an issue, unless you're near the coast. I haven't had to deal with these issues personally, so I'm not much help. Oftentimes, powerloss during warming/poor warm restart is the first indication of the need for new rings. Have you checked warm compression? For CDI issues, it's nice to have someone to test these by doing a swap.

2) On the Elite engine: If you can get one for a good price I'd swap it in and sell the Spree motor to someone else. You need to manufacture a new front motor mount and reuse the Spree shock to keep the height the same. Otherwise it's a pretty clean mod. You get a variator and a small selection of aftermarket parts that are available for these. Vette76 did this swap, and Darat has modded an engine of this vintage. A '94+ Elite 50 (Dio) motor is even more desirable, and will also fit. Diosoljah built up one of these...fast fast fast.

darat · Post by **darat** » Mon Dec 05, 2005 9:33 am

yeah it was pretty simple just a new jug and pistion and rings and gaskets. but since it blew up now i am going get a 70cc kit for it.
Ok i got a off topic question i am getin another eng off ebay and it is stock my carb has a #87 in as the main jet the stock one is a #85 do you think it should be all right with the 87 in? b/c i cant find my 85

vette76 · Post by **vette76** » Mon Dec 05, 2005 11:21 am

stock shouldnt be a #85. should be a #65.