Carburetor Questions

[lakehouse]

OK guys! Here's my dilemma. I have an '89 spree, all original, with less that 500 miles since new, and has never been torn into before now. It was sitting outdoors, uncovered, with fuel and oil in the tanks for between 8 and 10 years. Needless to say, it was neglected. The engine itself is in good condition, but starves for fuel when trying to accelerate. It starts very easily, but goes flat when throttled up to the point where it dies. I have disassembled the carb, vatted it in Berryman's Carb solution, and blew all passages with compressed air. The bistarter checks out at 5.3 ohms, and when 12VDC is applied, the brass sleeve extends about 1/8". (I believe those are normal parameters.) However, even after a second vatting, cleaning, inspecting, blowing, etc., the engine still won't run like it should on acceleration. When the engine is cold, and the bistarter has yet to have a chance to warm up and "do its thing", it seems to accelerate just fine. That is, until the bistarter closes the fuel off. One member suggested that I leave the bistarter installed, and leave it unplugged. That may be a solution, but it's just skirmishing the issue. I'd like to have everything working like it should, as the previous original owner claimed he never had any issues with it at all. And the bistarter was still plugged into the circuit upon initial disassembly.

My question to all you gearheads (and I say that with the utmost respect) is, what have you done in that past when attempting to rebuild a carburetor doesn't do any good at all? I have not been able to find any brand new carbs for a cb50p online, and even old take offs are a bit hard to find. Are there any aftermarket performance carbs available that don't require a lot of other major modifications? I'd like to keep mine as original as possible, but once the side panels are installed, it would be difficult to see what was there. I'm open to any suggestions no matter how ridiculous they may sound. Am I overlooking something? I have good compression and good spark, and everything points to it should run just fine. But it doesn't. HELP!

[Wheelman-111]

Greetings:

You are correct in all your surmisals but one: The Pilot circuit is still gummed up, apparently. Otherwise running just fine on the Bystarter wouldn't be possible. Almost nobody gets it completely clean on the first go.

If you're feeling really brave, slip a just-small-enough drill bit into the low-speed standpipe and wiggle-wiggle it out. There you can address the Tiny Pin-* O' Light in the carb body more effectively. Reinstall the standpipe and Behold: A Spree that runs like it should.

[lakehouse]

I know EXACTLY what and where you are talking about. I was able to pass a 0.025" diameter pin through the hole in the carb body and can see daylight through it, and pass compressed air (obviously) too. But something that has me a bit puzzled also. This carb was a virgin until my hands touched it for disassembly. The shop manual shows a diffuser tube that sits upon, and is held in place, by the jet. When I pulled mine apart, there wasn't any diffuser tube (with all the minute holes that is supposed to atomize the fuel prior to entering the venturi.)! I find it hard to believe that this would be a cause to my problem, but at the moment, not too much would surprise me. Although I do have a mechanical engineering background, I'd be the first to admit that theory and the real world don't always agree with one another. Maybe the carb that was assembled at the plant was done on a Friday afternoon just prior to Saki time, and the diffuser was omitted. LOL But thanks for your thought and suggestion. Maybe pulling it down for the third time will be a charm.

[lakehouse]

Oops! Slight correction on my original posting. I do NOT have a Spree. I have an Elite, not that it should make that much of a difference. Fuel and air flow are basically the same, I would think. It seems like there are more Spree owners than there are Elite owners on this forum. Either way, I think our hearts and passions are on the same path.

[lakehouse]

Everything flows well. Nice steady stream into catch can for 20 seconds or more with no interruption or pulsing. No issues there. My plan is to put some gas/oil into a spray bottle, start the cold motor up, give it full throttle after a few seconds (this is when it is so slow to accelerate), and spay into carb opening. The rpm's should take off if the mixture is too lean, and should stall the engine from flooding if it is too rich. This should tell me which dragon I am trying to slay. Good idea, no?

[Wheelman-111]

Greetings:

Pretty good plan. Hope you find your dragon.
If the diffuser wasn't there, did you install one?
These things are durn cranky with All the parts present. Ain't no tellin' how cranky with something missing...

[lakehouse]

Here's a quick update, and I'm not sure if I am making any progress or going rapidly in reverse!
FIRST OFF.....spraying a light fuel/oil mist into the carb at WOT conditions stalled the engine. I have been accusing the carb of being too lean. Now it's pointing at being too rich. Hmmmm.....
SECONDLY: I have a number 68 jet in the jet "tower" like the manual says it should be (for 1,ooo ft. elevation and an all stock engine). And I don't think that indicates the drill size of the hole, as I cannot pass a .040" diameter drill though it. I cannot remember what number size drill that is off hand.
THIRD: I don't have any small carbs to rob a diffuser off of. So to answer your question, no, I haven't put anything else in its place. I have seen a fine wire mesh used as a diffuser before, but the old British cars that came with SU and CD150's and 175's didn't use anything like that. But that's not comparing apples to apples. I have an old Homelite weed whacker I'll look at to see if there is anything I can use off of it.
I haven't given up on it yet, and feel that I'll resolve the issue sooner or later. (Now my fuel shut off valve is stuck in the wide open position!) Is there no end to this? The question now is how to lean out the fuel? And is that truly my problem? Or, my only problem.
But thanks again for your input. I really appreciate it. Tomorrow is supposed to drop down to 25 degrees here in N. Texas, with a high of maybe 40. YUCK! But it will be back to 75ish this weekend. Cold garages are hard on an old body like mine. The screws in my lower back act up more then. Whaa, whaa, whaa!
Later, my friend!
Andy

[Wheelman-111]

Greetings:

I admire your ingenuity, but you still haven't convinced me the carb isn't lean. Your "light spray" might introduce non-combustibly large fuel droplets, and take it from too lean to stall-worthy too rich. You really should consider replacing the emulsion tube in any case. Without it, no conclusion will certain. Some Stihl carb hardware still won't settle the question. I'll bet there are a ton of carb innards in peoples' stashes around here. Ax real nice and someone will just mail you one.

A stuck "open" fuel valve isn't contributing to your symptoms - usually they stick closed.

[lakehouse]

Again, I'll agree with you on all that you have stated. And thanks for the comment on my ingenuity. I know that it's crude, but at least I am trying something. I did find a few suppliers that are offering the tube in question, and I agree that it may even solve all my problems. But living where I do, scooters were never popular in this region, and from what I have read, that particular Elite E model was only built for 3 years. But that's not to say that there isn't a bolt on that would work somewhere. In fact, I ran across a website called Ali Express that has a direct replacement carb brand new for $29.30 including shipping charges. Needless to say, I ordered one on the spot. Supposedly, it will be here in 5 - 15 days. I am somewhat of a gambler, although I do prefer the casino atmosphere, but it's worth a shot. Meanwhile, if I get tired of foolin' with what I have, I can start on repairing the panels that are cracked from being laid down. Not that it makes too much of a difference, I am setting this up to run on the lake bottom where I live, and the trails across the street from my home. I put 2.75 - 10 semi knobby tires on front and back, and should be fun to play with. I know it will not compare to the Silver Wing I had for 4 years, but it still will be fun. When this project is completed, I have a 1970 Honda CL100 waiting in the wings for restoration. It's all original with 5060 actual miles on it. I had a 305 and a 450 scrambler back when they were a dime a dozen. Wish I still had those two bikes. I liked them better than my Harley that I recently sold. Sorry...I'm getting off the subject! Bad habit of mine! LOL
I'll sleep on other ideas until the new carb comes in and have an abundance of time to try a few different ideas. I tore into my parts weed whacker, and there was nothing usable on it at all. Don't know why I'm even saving it, since the coil on it is shot. Another bad habit of mine.
I'll see what I can dream up of what to try when I can't sleep tonight and nothing is on TV but infomercials. Love being awake at 2 or 3 in the morning. TG I am retired and don't have a job to maintain. Keep an eye out for my next posting, as the saga continues.
Thanks again for your comments.
Andy

[mousewheels]

them arent elite carbs. you need dio manifolds, and airboxes. their pb carbs. all them chinese ones are. no you cant find manifolds easy. but they are a nice replacement. lots of jets. alright so manifolds arent that hard to get. its just you8 go ta chinese copy. now . and the stock carbs split throttle cable unelss the chinese copy has one, you gotta get a cable. make it, like as long as the split throttle cable section. and for airfilter. get whatever. plus, your carbs smaller. but theres jets for that carb. pilots and main. as long as your manifolds 4 bolt... think an aero manifold wouold work. bolt hole spacing, get them same.

Couple comments:

1) Near as I can tell, the poster says he has an Elite 50, which is a PA carb. At this point is not clear to me the poster requires a change in intakes, cables or a clone carb.

2) I read in your post enthusiasm for Chinese PB clones and have seen some, but own none. I do have an OEM PB carb in hand from an Aero 80. If you like, PM a link for your favorite clone PB carb. I am most happy to buy one and compare with a genuine in a separate thread. On the pilot jets - I am also interested, as the only PB jets we list on the 'wiki come from Honda.

>> as long as your manifolds 4 bolt... think an aero manifold would work. bolt hole spacing, get them same
3) That's correct, yet I'd add clarification: *Aero 80* intake will take a PB carb, as they came stock with a PB. The *Aero 50* will not, it has a PA carb thus mounting bolt spacing is too narrow.

4) You sound familiar to long timers here...

[lakehouse]

Interesting comments. In comparing the carb that I ordered verses OEM Honda carb, the reason I ordered it is b/c it has the same EXACT mounting bolt dimension, the same EXACT size intake opening, and the EXACT same sized outlet going to the manifold. Physically, it looks like an original and I realize that it is a clone. If it works with no problems, I'll be thrilled. It's marketed as a carb for a 50cc Honda without any further discrimination. It's not like I am investing hundreds of dollar or more on a blind pig. I've spent more than 30 bucks on one turn of the cards at a Blackjack table in the past, so why not give this a try? I'll make a post when I get it, and if I have any issues of any kind with it. I may have stumbled upon a valuable resource for the good folks that are on this site, and am happy to share any info that I come across. And I wouldn't poopah clones either. Anybody who has ever bought anything from a Harbor Freight store has at least one clone in their possession. LOL
The carburetor saga continues........
Andy

[lakehouse]

Well....I had my head where the sun doesn't shine. Per suggestions from Wheelman-111 and Mousewheels, I went back and looked closer at the carb body.....this time with my bifocals on! And sure enough, there was the aerator tube (or whatever the correct term for it is) above the main jet just like they said. I missed it on the first couple of go arounds, as I thought that was a brass tube pressed into the carb body for the throttle needle to "ride" in like the old SU's were. I managed to wiggle it free (like instructed), and cleaned it up carefully. I was able to pass a strand of copper wire through each hole with no effort. I don't think it was clogged, but it might have had a coat of varnish from the dried gas plugging something somewhere. Putting everything back together carefully, I fired the motor up, and couldn't tell any difference. It is extremely slow to get RPM's freewheeling on the stand, and cannot get it to idle down and stay running. Removing the bistarter didn't make any difference either. So I put my tools away for now, swept out the garage, and did a few honeydos around the house instead. Maybe getting away from it for a day or two will revive me a bit more to pull the carb off AGAIN! I have to admit that this is getting to be old. But I am getting much faster at having that carb sitting on my workbench! LOL If I don't come up with any brainstorms, or get further advice for you guys, I'll just wait until the new carb gets here from Hong Kong. I can get started on the bodywork meanwhile. If you were me, where would you look at finding the problem? Again, any thoughts, no matter how wild they may sound, would be greatly appreciated. Maybe by spring I can have this machine ready to roll down the tarmac somewhere. Only time will tell.
In advance, thanks guys, for your input in the past on this brain teaser. I appreciate the time you've taken to make a post on the subject.
Andy

[noiseguy]

I've never been able to get a pin, wire, or anything else to pass through the idle jet. The fact that you could concerns me... That someone has drilled it out.

How's the air cleaner element? Would be rotted by now, assume you replaced it?

[lakehouse]

Misunderstanding.....I passed a single copper wire through the holes in the diffuser and NOT the jet itself. And that was just a single strand from a 16 or 18 gage wire. I'm guessing the stock #68 (?) jet is about 0.025 " give or take. The wire probably wasn't bigger than 0.010" or so. Just slightly bigger than a human hair. Safety pins are about 0.035" and will not go through the jet. I was measuring with a dial caliper, as I didn't see the need to break out my mics for this one.

Air filter and box are off sitting on the bench. I've read posts that people claim that the air box has to be on for true running conditions. I never figured that one out. But then again, my background is 4 strokers. Anybody got an answer on that one? Please don't tell me all my issues are b/c I have the air box off. That would cause me to partake heavily in some spirited beverages! LOL

[Wheelman-111]

Greetings:

Two strokes operate with an open channel from the carb mouth all the way to the exhaust port - at least part of the time. Pressure-wave oscillations make them very sensitive to removing the airbox - MUCH more than 4 strokes. The Pilot is TINY, and needs some negative pressure upstream of the carb if it is to draw fuel in the limited vacuum that an engine produces just off-idle. As a result, it bogs and often dies if you give it throttle and don't have the airbox mounted. Best way to tell is to re-install and try.