'85 Spree still doesn't want to start

[Tombo]

Hi everyone,
Had new tires put on and the spree runs great WHEN it starts. The carb is clean and was never very dirty in the first place. I took it apart again on Sunday afternoon and it was still clean-even poked a wire through each hole. Still had to give it a shot of starting fluid( I know not to do that too often and haven't rode it much), but it started and ran fine. Started it again 5 hours later just to check. Monday at noon it briefly fired for a second and then nothing as usual. Could it be something other than the carb?

On a side note, I'm thinking about trading it in for a Metropolitan or even a Forza. Leaning heavily toward the Forza. What should I expect to get for the Spree? It's otherwise in very nice shape. It's always been stored in a garage.

[jetspinz]

It has to be one of three things usually. Spark, fuel, or mechanical. It's easiest to start eliminating things in that order too. How old is the plug? No matter, change it anyway. The fact it runs great as you say 'when it starts' suggests to me that a bit of heat is helping the cause alot. Unlikely to be a vac leak. What condition were the reeds in when you pulled the carb off? Assuming you looked... (if not, perhaps you should quickly)

Anyway start with the plug - they are cheap as all * and can sometimes surprise you - mind you I do a lot of work with Jetskis, a new set fixes prob 40% of the problems I see.

[Tombo]

Reeds looked nice and clean and undamaged last time I looked.

I'll buy a new plug tomorrow.

[bobbygerard]

Check you getting a constant spark. Mine did the same put a new cdi in worked fine.

[deuce217]

Buy the met and put the engine on the spree. Your spree will probably pull 150-300 as is, assuming it is pretty complete. Depending on your area. If you get it running well you should pull 300-450.00 maybe a hair more if she is in great shape.

[Tombo]

Buy the met and put the engine on the spree. Your spree will probably pull 150-300 as is, assuming it is pretty complete. Depending on your area. If you get it running well you should pull 300-450.00 maybe a hair more if she is in great shape.

Now that's an idea! LOL I wonder what it would do to the spree. How much does the spree weigh? I think the Met is around 150lbs.

[Tombo]

Went to the dealer today and brought the old spark plug with me. I got it a long time ago at a dealer in Colorado when I first tried to get it running again. The only miles it has on it are the ones after talking to you guys here when I joined. The clerk today said it's the wrong plug and the wrong gap (NGK BP6HS). The correct plug is NGK BPR6HS. He said the correct plug is a "resistance plug". Correct plug is out of stock until next week. He offered to sell me a "cooler plug", but I figure that's what I have already. Is it available anywhere else?

If it turns out to be the CDI too, where can I find it? How much?

I appreciate all the help and am enjoying the education.

While at the dealership, I looked at the Forza(not enough leg room for me @ 6'1"), the Silverwing, and the PCX150. Really liked the 150 though I didn't ride any of them.

If I can get the Spree running, I'll be happy although I'm too big for it at 210lbs. :

[jetspinz]

Your current plug is the right dimensions and heat range, but wrong 'type' - it should be a resistor type plug which may be the cause of your headache. NGK plugs with an R in the number have a 5kOhm resistor which many electronic ignition systems (cdi/coil rather than magneto) need for proper function and in many cases to reduce electromagnetic interference.

The 6 denotes the heat range. Higher number is cooler.

No issue with cooler plug, BPR8HS is even a Honda option and what I use. You can also use BPR7HS just fine on a stock NQ.

[patthesoundguy]

I dont think the resister is a big deal. It had the protruding electrode and the right heat range. But having the proper plug speced out by Honda wI'll ensure proper operation. Especially when trouble shooting

[bobbygerard]

Look on ebay for cdi or go to scooterassain web page

[jetspinz]

I dont think the resister is a big deal. It had the protruding electrode and the right heat range. But having the proper plug speced out by Honda wI'll ensure proper operation. Especially when trouble shooting

I came accross this alot when I worked in auto parts. It can actually be quite a major. The following is from NGK:

Q: When should I use a resistor spark plug?

A: NGK "R" or resistor spark plugs use a 5k ohm ceramic resistor in the spark plug to suppress ignition noise generated during sparking.

NGK strongly recommends using resistor spark plugs in any vehicle that uses on-board computer systems to monitor or control engine performance. This is because resistor spark plugs reduce electromagnetic interference with on-board electronics.

They are also recommended on any vehicle that has other on-board electronic systems such as engine-management computers, two-way radios, GPS systems, depth finders or whenever recommended by the manufacturer.

In fact, using a non-resistor plug in certain applications can actually cause the engine to suffer undesirable side effects such as an erratic idle, high-rpm misfire, engine run-on, power drop off at certain rpm levels and abnormal combustion.

[patthesoundguy]

I dont think the resister is a big deal. It had the protruding electrode and the right heat range. But having the proper plug speced out by Honda wI'll ensure proper operation. Especially when trouble shooting

I came accross this alot when I worked in auto parts. It can actually be quite a major. The following is from NGK:

Q: When should I use a resistor spark plug?

A: NGK "R" or resistor spark plugs use a 5k ohm ceramic resistor in the spark plug to suppress ignition noise generated during sparking.

NGK strongly recommends using resistor spark plugs in any vehicle that uses on-board computer systems to monitor or control engine performance. This is because resistor spark plugs reduce electromagnetic interference with on-board electronics.

They are also recommended on any vehicle that has other on-board electronic systems such as engine-management computers, two-way radios, GPS systems, depth finders or whenever recommended by the manufacturer.

In fact, using a non-resistor plug in certain applications can actually cause the engine to suffer undesirable side effects such as an erratic idle, high-rpm misfire, engine run-on, power drop off at certain rpm levels and abnormal combustion.

Hey great find
I figure if Honda says use BPR6HS there is a reason The dudes who built the thing know waayyyyyy more than I could ever hope. I also know if you use the specified plug you won't have to second guess wether the the plug being a different design is actually causeing a problem or not.

[Tombo]

Okay the right plug just got here and I installed it. It started with a rough idle and then stopped after a few seconds. I attributed it to messing with the idle and air mixture screw previously. Set the air screw correctly at 1 7/8 turns out. Still have to pump the throttle several times to get it run for one second. It's so close, but I don't know what else to do. Tried the idle screw in several positions, no luck.

The plug is gapped at 0.025 as I read on the forum.

She's getting close.

[patthesoundguy]

Have you checked the air filter and the airbox lid along with the air hose going from the airbox to the carb and made sure its clamped on right. Sprees dont like air leaks at all. And that can cause issues. You need to follow the idle air mixture procedure in the manual that means setting the mixture screw and idle screw to get it to idle right. So setting the predetermined 1 7/8 turns out is a good start but the idle speed may be too low. Can you hold the throttle open just a little to maintain a good idle? That could mean the idle speed is just a little too low. If you turn the air screw in or out while its at idle do you hear any change. If I can get somethingto idle iI'll turn the screw in and count the turns as I go in and listen for changes. Then I'll return it to where it started and then back the screw out counting as I go out from the original starting point where it ran and idled. If its no better in or out I'll know where it started. And remember the mixture screw regulates how much air mixes to a pre determined amount of fuel metered by the pilot jet. Meaning the more the screw goes in the less air geta into the mixture thefore its getting more fuel or richer. Screw goes out it gets more air and thefore less fuel or leaner. All is this is no good if the small orifice in the float bowl of the carb that feeds the idle is clogged or the bystarter is not functioning properly. There is a vacuum test for the bystarter in the manual. Or you have a mechanical issue such as cooked cylinder or rings. Checking compression if you dont get anywhere is a great plan.

[Tombo]

Like you described, I tried both the air screw and idle screw adjustments in various locations. My best idle was about 4 or 5 seconds after I put in the new plug. This is actually a major step forward. Adding throttle to help maintain ignition has failed every attempt tonight. The old plug was both the wrong one, incorrectly gapped, and wouldn't start without the help of starting fluid unless it was only days or hours after using starting fluid to get it going in the first place.

The air filter is new and no leaks even suspected by sight or sound. The intake hose clamp is secure and even tried it with the hose off. I do recall at least one (maybe both) of the tabs on the air box was brittle and broken, but the top screw keeps the lid secure.

After the initial excitement of the first firing, it was mostly nothing. The only hint of ignition is after priming the throttle about 8+times to get a one second ignition. After all that I tried starting fluid once more for only a brief two seconds of ignition.

As far as compression goes, it has run great when it starts. Even with my 210 lbs, it gets me to at least 28 mph on level.

I wasn't expecting much from the correct spark plug but was pleasantly surprised if only for a moment.

In case it helps, I had the batter charger on after the battery got too weak to turn it over. Used it as a jump starter to give full power starting whenever tried different adjustments. Took my time so as not to burn out the starter and whatnot.

So, is the next step CDI and/or bystarter? This old girl spent every night in a garage since the day I got her brand new. She's too nice to give up on.