85 spree with elite engine low top speed

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Bossshelby
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85 spree with elite engine low top speed

Post by Bossshelby » Sat Jun 04, 2016 1:17 pm

Hi all I have recently built an 85 spree and I put an 87 Honda elite engine in it. My problem with it is it tops out at 35-37. I have gone through the the whole engine and put new clutches and springs on the back, 3 new 7g and 3 8g rollers, new belt, carb rebuild kit, new piston and rings(has 150psi compression, ported exhaust port, custom muffler, ported and polished intake, new 2.75 tire, fresh oil gas and gear oil, new sparkplug gapped at .6, all new gaskets and bearings. I've also put a new factory Honda chi and coil. I run rec 90 fuel That's unleaded and has no ethanol and I use Honda oils for everything. There are no leaks, it starts right up and runs pretty good. I am stumped at what to do next. If anyone can help me it's much appreciated.
Have 4, 84-86 Sprees
Sprite-85 Honda spree
-87 elite 50 engine
-90 jet
-9 and 10 gram rollers
-Highly ported intake and exhaust
-custom performance muffler
3 original sprees. A red, black and white

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Wheelman-111
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Re: 85 spree with elite engine low top speed

Post by Wheelman-111 » Sat Jun 04, 2016 6:53 pm

Greetings:

Plug gap of .6? I'm not sure what that means. The variated AF05 engine doesn't go much faster than 37 in stock healthy form. You didn't define "Custom Muffler" but that may be keeping it from going faster than that.
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Most of my money is spent on scooterparts. The rest is just wasted.
"ISO": '03 Vespa ET4 Malossi187 72MPH
Flash 9: 2001 Elite SR Contesta 72 ZX Tran, 9:1 Gears, Stock Airbox/Carb/Pipe 58.8 MPH
Punkin: 2010 Vespa/Malossi S78, 61MPH

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Re: 85 spree with elite engine low top speed

Post by patthesoundguy » Sun Jun 05, 2016 7:59 am

2strokes don't like certain types of modifications to the exhaust, too much flow can make the motor lethargic. What is the custom exhust you speak of. Pics? :-)
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84 Spree stock
84 Spree Dio AF18E MHR Cylinder Arrow Pipe 28mm OKO
80 Express, 47mm DR BBKit, Weak Ends Intake, Boyesen Dual stage reeds, 19mm Delorto carb, MLM pipe
79 Express
85 Aero 80 stock
84 elite 125 stock

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Re: 85 spree with elite engine low top speed

Post by noiseguy » Sun Jun 05, 2016 9:21 am

Top speed for that engine is about 37 in stock form. You added an exhaust mod and porting (I've no idea what those did for you) but unless you change gearing that adds nothing to top speed.

There's an aftermarket variator for that engine that, alone, will get you to 40 in my experience. I used one on bike in past. They were ~$40 on Ebay last I checked, years ago.

Anything further you need to get a new set of rear gears to improve your final drive ratio.
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Re: 85 spree with elite engine low top speed

Post by Wheelman-111 » Sun Jun 05, 2016 10:57 am

Greetings:

This is a pretty good deal for the variator, ramp plate and 2 sets of weights with which to experiment. I have found that even a stock AF05 can benefit in acceleration by reducing the total stock load of 60 grams (6 x 10g) to 54 or even 48 to 51 grams. If your modified exhaust is keeping the engine RPM from reaching high enough, consider swapping back to a good stock exhaust or the LeoVince SP-3. The kit number to search for is #4447. The Malossi Wild Lion, if you can find one, is another respected performance pipe. Either one will raise the RPM limit of your engine, and possibly top speed if the power is there.

[Edit:] The ramp plate hole on the kit in the link will be too big for the crankshaft on your 05 engine. ALso the pulley boss won't fit as the center hole is too big. Use the stock boss. For the ramp plate, you have a few choices:
1: You can use the stock ramp plate. Get rid of the grease cover altogether, and de-grease the ramp plate thoroughly.
2: You can search for the elusive SEF ramp plate that has a 12mm hole diameter. (I THINK that's right, but it might be 10mm...)
3: If you're handy, you can machine and press in a shim washer with this shape: __|| ||__ - to take up the gap left by the SEF plate.
Wheelman-111
Most of my money is spent on scooterparts. The rest is just wasted.
"ISO": '03 Vespa ET4 Malossi187 72MPH
Flash 9: 2001 Elite SR Contesta 72 ZX Tran, 9:1 Gears, Stock Airbox/Carb/Pipe 58.8 MPH
Punkin: 2010 Vespa/Malossi S78, 61MPH

Bossshelby
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Re: 85 spree with elite engine low top speed

Post by Bossshelby » Sun Jun 05, 2016 12:20 pm

OK thanks for all replys, what I meant was I gapped the factory spark plug to factory spec in he manual. And with my custom exhaust, I cut out the old tip and put in a larger one and also cut the whole muffler open and cleaned it out. I roughly sketched out what I did to the muffler. I have hit 43 once but that was all it had and it was a prefectly flat road.
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Have 4, 84-86 Sprees
Sprite-85 Honda spree
-87 elite 50 engine
-90 jet
-9 and 10 gram rollers
-Highly ported intake and exhaust
-custom performance muffler
3 original sprees. A red, black and white

Bossshelby
Spree
Spree
Posts: 105
Joined: Fri Sep 12, 2008 8:28 pm
Location: Clinton Twp Michigan
Contact:

Re: 85 spree with elite engine low top speed

Post by Bossshelby » Sun Jun 05, 2016 12:23 pm

I also check my variator and it's the better one with the angled Ramps instead of the flat ramps.
Have 4, 84-86 Sprees
Sprite-85 Honda spree
-87 elite 50 engine
-90 jet
-9 and 10 gram rollers
-Highly ported intake and exhaust
-custom performance muffler
3 original sprees. A red, black and white

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patthesoundguy
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Re: 85 spree with elite engine low top speed

Post by patthesoundguy » Sun Jun 05, 2016 7:57 pm

I'd put your stock cdi back on that scoot. Those blue aftermarket cdi boxes really suck monkey behinds. I tried one on my af18 for the heck of it because I wanted a spare cdi for my golf cart. And my af18 wouldn't get out of its own way. As far as I can tell those cdis are for 4 stroke because the blue cdi is now on a honda clone dune buggy and it rips!
Dude! Ya Can't Fix Stupid!
84 Spree stock
84 Spree Dio AF18E MHR Cylinder Arrow Pipe 28mm OKO
80 Express, 47mm DR BBKit, Weak Ends Intake, Boyesen Dual stage reeds, 19mm Delorto carb, MLM pipe
79 Express
85 Aero 80 stock
84 elite 125 stock

Bossshelby
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Joined: Fri Sep 12, 2008 8:28 pm
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Re: 85 spree with elite engine low top speed

Post by Bossshelby » Sun Jun 05, 2016 10:27 pm

Ok i will put the stock one back on tomorrow and post up the results, thanks very much. Also Should I put the stock coil and plug wire back on too or just leave it.
Have 4, 84-86 Sprees
Sprite-85 Honda spree
-87 elite 50 engine
-90 jet
-9 and 10 gram rollers
-Highly ported intake and exhaust
-custom performance muffler
3 original sprees. A red, black and white

Bossshelby
Spree
Spree
Posts: 105
Joined: Fri Sep 12, 2008 8:28 pm
Location: Clinton Twp Michigan
Contact:

Re: 85 spree with elite engine low top speed

Post by Bossshelby » Mon Jun 06, 2016 9:46 pm

Ok I put the stock did back on and it made very little to no change.
Have 4, 84-86 Sprees
Sprite-85 Honda spree
-87 elite 50 engine
-90 jet
-9 and 10 gram rollers
-Highly ported intake and exhaust
-custom performance muffler
3 original sprees. A red, black and white

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kuromi
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Re: 85 spree with elite engine low top speed

Post by kuromi » Wed Jun 08, 2016 10:00 am

Maybe your modded exhaust is blowing the charge straight out of the tail section instead of creating a bit of bottle neck pressure to keep the fuel in the cylinder.

What did the porting on the cylinder involve?
e.g. if you've raised the height of the exhaust you'll lose compression and power unless you compensate in the head
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Bossshelby
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Re: 85 spree with elite engine low top speed

Post by Bossshelby » Wed Jun 08, 2016 3:36 pm

Ok I checked the exhaust and it doesn't blow straight out and the exhaust port was opened up by one of the members on here and I deburred it and honed it.
Have 4, 84-86 Sprees
Sprite-85 Honda spree
-87 elite 50 engine
-90 jet
-9 and 10 gram rollers
-Highly ported intake and exhaust
-custom performance muffler
3 original sprees. A red, black and white

Bossshelby
Spree
Spree
Posts: 105
Joined: Fri Sep 12, 2008 8:28 pm
Location: Clinton Twp Michigan
Contact:

Re: 85 spree with elite engine low top speed

Post by Bossshelby » Sun Jul 24, 2016 3:23 pm

Ok so I have it all stock (CDI,exhaust,coil) and its still doing 38. I checked my rollers and they are 8 and 9 grams. So my question now is would this affect speed and what weight should I have in there.
Have 4, 84-86 Sprees
Sprite-85 Honda spree
-87 elite 50 engine
-90 jet
-9 and 10 gram rollers
-Highly ported intake and exhaust
-custom performance muffler
3 original sprees. A red, black and white

User avatar
Wheelman-111
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Re: 85 spree with elite engine low top speed

Post by Wheelman-111 » Sun Jul 24, 2016 4:25 pm

Greetings:

There has been a lot of misinformation about the effect of roller weights on top speed.

Basically if the engine RPM is high enough for the centrifugal force to fling the rollers, acting against the counterforce of the rear pulley spring, all the way to the end of their ramps at top speed and the belt fully spreads the rear pulleys all the way apart, the final drive gearing is established by whatever ratio the respective pulley diameters dictate multiplied by the gears in the case. In that situation, your transmission is in "Top Gear" and your speed will be dictated by the power the engine can produce fighting against the wind and mechanical resistance. Period... except for a couple of exceptions. There are almost always exceptions.

1. If the rollers are Stupid-light - like the 3-grams available in some cheap sets - the belt won't move very far even as the engine reaches an RPM where it runs out of breath. All engines will Max Out, even with the wheel off the ground, at wide open throttle. Revving higher than this limit, the engine torque actually declines. Set up this way, top speed will be limited to "Second Gear" speed.

2. If the rollers are Stupid-heavy, the belt shifts immediately as the revs start to climb to the status in bold above. So now, even if you open the throttle all the way, the engine is stuck in Top Gear, revving at a speed about a third of the RPM where it makes its best power, lugging to apply its torque to building air resistance. With some help from a hill or a brisk tailwind, it will eventually groan its way to the same top speed as it would have with more appropriately-sized rollers, but you might give up on holding the throttle open before that has time to happen. "Stop it, your killing me", the engine seems to say.

So rollers and spring stiffness DO affect the performance and behavior of the engine between Idle/take-off and that fully-shifted belt - in other words, how the scooter accelerates and manages hills. But putting in heavier rollers in an attempt to improve top speed? Re-read the above to see why that probably won't happen unless your rollers were MUCH too light to begin with. Going faster requires adding power and/or subtracting drag.

One thing you can do is Sharpie the pulleys in a Mercedes logo. Then you can see - by how much of the rays are erased by the belt - how far up or down the belt travels.
Wheelman-111
Most of my money is spent on scooterparts. The rest is just wasted.
"ISO": '03 Vespa ET4 Malossi187 72MPH
Flash 9: 2001 Elite SR Contesta 72 ZX Tran, 9:1 Gears, Stock Airbox/Carb/Pipe 58.8 MPH
Punkin: 2010 Vespa/Malossi S78, 61MPH

Bossshelby
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Re: 85 spree with elite engine low top speed

Post by Bossshelby » Sun Jul 31, 2016 5:03 pm

Ok I am going to get the stock rollers and also sharpie the pulleys to see what's going on thank you guys for your help
Have 4, 84-86 Sprees
Sprite-85 Honda spree
-87 elite 50 engine
-90 jet
-9 and 10 gram rollers
-Highly ported intake and exhaust
-custom performance muffler
3 original sprees. A red, black and white

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