Good CVT Setups for 9:1 Gears/ZX on stock AF16 motor

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Sevyndaze
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Good CVT Setups for 9:1 Gears/ZX on stock AF16 motor

Post by Sevyndaze »

Hi Everyone,

So after a long break and many (many) hours, I've got my '01 Elite painted and put back together with 9:1 gears and a ZX rear pulley. I'm using the Malossi belt and the KN Planning clutch that came in the ZX kit from SSS, with a Polini variator using the 6.9g weights that came with it, and the longer boss that is (I think) meant for the ZX rear.

The problem is that now the scoot is way slower than before (with only the polini variator) off the line. The engine shoots right up to about 7500 RPM, and seems to hang out there for a bit before it starts to shift out. Feels normal once it gets to 20 MPH or so, but seems like it really struggles to get there.

I have two theories about what might be happening: Either the boss that I'm using is too long and the belt is slipping before the variator starts to shift, or my roller weights are too heavy for the taller gears. I'm inclined to go for the latter as I can turn the engine over by rotating the rear pulley, but just barely.

I'd love to hear anyone else's thoughts and also to know what trans setups (roller weights, clutch center spring/shoe springs) have worked well for the rest of you!
2001 Elite S (Derestricted)
Arrow Exhaust
Polini Variator
6.9g rollers
ZX Trans
1.5k Contra, 4k shoe springs
16/42 Gears
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bonesv
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Re: Good CVT Setups for 9:1 Gears/ZX on stock AF16 motor

Post by bonesv »

Ok so it’s not a 120cc stroker with 6:1 gears. Wondering why you have put the zx rear pulley on there? You don’t need the help of the zx pulley running 9:1 gears. But if you are going to go that route then try using a lighter contra spring in the rear pulley and if that does not feel right for your top end speed, change it back and yse the stock variator boss and use shims until it shifts better. I don’t believe the roller weights are playing into it at this point but for a quick check, first increase the roller weights to maybe 7.5 or 8.0 see if it helps. Belt drive tuning is a learning process so just be sure when the parts going on and off they are not being damaged or left un-torqued.
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Re: Good CVT Setups for 9:1 Gears/ZX on stock AF16 motor

Post by Sevyndaze »

I got the ZX to negate the low end loss from the 9:1 conversion. Maybe I don't need it? SSS shipped the new clutch already attached to the ZX pulley, and while I appreciate that they assembled it for me, the scientist in me cringes at testing so many variables (clutch, pulley, gears, belt) simultaneously. The only other roller weights I have are the 5.3g set that came with the polini variator and the stock ones which have pretty good flat spots.

Since I don't have a lighter contra spring on hand, I think my next step will be to put the stock boss/belt/clutch/pulley back on and see what that changes. Then at least I'm just testing the new gears by themselves.

I figured it probably wouldn't all work perfectly on the first go, but I'm glad to have input from you and the other guys who have helped me out to point me in the right direction!
2001 Elite S (Derestricted)
Arrow Exhaust
Polini Variator
6.9g rollers
ZX Trans
1.5k Contra, 4k shoe springs
16/42 Gears
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Re: Good CVT Setups for 9:1 Gears/ZX on stock AF16 motor

Post by bonesv »

Try it and see but I have a zx pulley on a scooter and the bando 18-669-30 belt works better than the malossi zx (same size) belt does. 😬
Realistically, the stock clutch will work fine for your 9:1 gears, with some mods (stronger springs) and stock belt and just a better than stock pulley.
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Re: Good CVT Setups for 9:1 Gears/ZX on stock AF16 motor

Post by Sevyndaze »

What variator weights do you use on that scoot?

I put the stock clutch and pulley back on this morning and it rides just like it did before, just a bit more sluggish off the line. With the stock clutch/pulley, at takeoff the RPMs climb a bit, then drop as the scoot starts to move, then climb back to around 7k while the CVT is shifting. By comparison, with the ZX the thing shoots up to 7500 lightning quick but the scoot doesn't accelerate much at all. I'll pick up a lighter spring for the clutch and a set or two of roller weights. I have shims for the variator boss so I guess I'll just have to play around with it.

One last, possibly dumb question: What do you use to hold the drive pulley while you torque the nut? I have a strap wrench that works well for the clutch bell but it tends to slip off the variator. Since it seems like I'm going to be taking it on and off several times in the not too distant future, I'd love an easier way.
2001 Elite S (Derestricted)
Arrow Exhaust
Polini Variator
6.9g rollers
ZX Trans
1.5k Contra, 4k shoe springs
16/42 Gears
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Re: Good CVT Setups for 9:1 Gears/ZX on stock AF16 motor

Post by Meatball »

Peak hp for the stock AF16 motor is 5.6hp @ 6,500 rpm’s. So youd want to tune your trans so stay AS CLOSE as you can to 6,500 rpm’s to take advantage of it’s max output. With the ZX trans, when rpm’s JUMP to 7,500 rpm’s then thats great! It is doing exactly what its supposed to by giving you a good low-end punch from the starting line. However, your cvt is “shifting” too late and surpassing your target of 6,500.

When you crank the throttle and you watch the tach climb, at some point you’ll see it platau and actually drop a bit. You’ll also hear a different tone from the motor. That is your variator “shifting”. Take note of the rpm at which it does this. You’ll want it to happen around 6,700 rpm and no more. Lower the shift point with heavier roller weights. Raise it with lighter roller. Just a gram or two make big changes. Weights can be mixed by using 3 of one weight and 3 of another. Just be sure to stagger them in the variator for even balance.

Roller weights work in conjunction with the contra spring for up AND downshifts. When decelerating to take a corner, the contra tension helps to downshift the variator to give you the needed torque to blast out of a curve. Otherwise, the bike will lug and be a total dog if stuck in high gear at low speeds.

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Re: Good CVT Setups for 9:1 Gears/ZX on stock AF16 motor

Post by Sevyndaze »

I love learning the "why" along with how things work, so I doubt I'd get bored reading more, but thanks for the tip! Bones also suggested to possibly add heavier weights, so I think that's what I'll be doing, along with changing to a softer clutch center spring. I'll of course make the changes one at a time so I can pinpoint any changes in behavior to a specific part.

Any advice on holding the drive pulley while tightening/loosening the nut?
2001 Elite S (Derestricted)
Arrow Exhaust
Polini Variator
6.9g rollers
ZX Trans
1.5k Contra, 4k shoe springs
16/42 Gears
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Re: Good CVT Setups for 9:1 Gears/ZX on stock AF16 motor

Post by Meatball »

I just use a cordless DeWalt Impact gun. Rattle it on/off with ease. Get nut started by hand to avoid cross-threading. Ive encountered stubborn ones that require a precisely wrapped strap wrench and a breaker bar but this is only for the FIRST time removal. The Factory really reefed it on tight or years of heat/cold locked it on good. Once its finally broke loose then a cordless impact works every time...clutch nut too. Just dont use impact on ANYTHING that threads into aluminum....it will strip faster than Stormy Daniels.
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Re: Good CVT Setups for 9:1 Gears/ZX on stock AF16 motor

Post by Sevyndaze »

Unfortunately I don't have an impact gun, only a small impact driver (for wood screws mostly) which won't quite do the job. Maybe I'll just have to get a piece of aluminum bar and hack something out that would bolt into the crankcase while meshing with the teeth on the drive pulley. Man I wish I still worked in a machine shop lol
2001 Elite S (Derestricted)
Arrow Exhaust
Polini Variator
6.9g rollers
ZX Trans
1.5k Contra, 4k shoe springs
16/42 Gears
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Re: Good CVT Setups for 9:1 Gears/ZX on stock AF16 motor

Post by bonesv »

1727842A-F57D-473F-88BC-A2CBE45BA4F3.jpeg
1727842A-F57D-473F-88BC-A2CBE45BA4F3.jpeg (130.67 KiB) Viewed 6626 times
Harbor freight or sears - maybe look online or ask auto zone for a loaner. Works on both clutch bell and with a little finesse, the drive face after pulling the pinion gear out.
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Re: Good CVT Setups for 9:1 Gears/ZX on stock AF16 motor

Post by Wheelman-111 »

Greetings:

I used that chain/Vise-Grip tool (how'd yours get so Grungy?!) for a long time. It's effective but a bit fussy. It needed more finesse and patience than I usually had to thread around the front pulley, but it can work. Easier to use this.
TuskHolder.jpg
TuskHolder.jpg (24.68 KiB) Viewed 6608 times
I gnawed a little notch in theends of the "L" to grab between the teeth of the pulley rim. Installs in seconds. Use the little pins for the clutch.
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Re: Good CVT Setups for 9:1 Gears/ZX on stock AF16 motor

Post by bonesv »

Wow that’s one I haven’t seen. Of course I wasn’t looking either. Oh yea I found the chain-wrench in much worse condition but for 25 cents it was a steal. Nice score wheelman!
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Dio ZX Headlight/Disc Brake Mod: http://hondaspree.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=30861
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Re: Good CVT Setups for 9:1 Gears/ZX on stock AF16 motor

Post by Sevyndaze »

Thanks for the suggestions, I think the set of locking pliers is a good investment since those chain wrenches tend to be expensive and the strap wrench I have works great for the clutch. I wish SSS had a good tool for it since I have to make an order for roller weights and a contra spring anyway. Will probably get a set of motor mount bushings too; after 17 years it couldn't hurt to replace them.

Unfortunately I have a (minor) surgery scheduled for Friday morning and will be busy with homework until then, and probably won't be too capable of breaking the nuts loose for a few weeks to follow. So this will probably have to wait until later this month or maybe until spring depending on how recovery goes. I can at least get the parts though. Maybe Santa will bring me a Corsa for xmas :-)
2001 Elite S (Derestricted)
Arrow Exhaust
Polini Variator
6.9g rollers
ZX Trans
1.5k Contra, 4k shoe springs
16/42 Gears
Sevyndaze
Spree
Spree
Posts: 114
Joined: Sun Jun 10, 2018 3:43 pm
Location: New Hampshire

Re: Good CVT Setups for 9:1 Gears/ZX on stock AF16 motor

Post by Sevyndaze »

One more question: does anyone know if clutch shoe springs that are made for the stock clutch will fit on the KN planning clutch that SSS sells?
2001 Elite S (Derestricted)
Arrow Exhaust
Polini Variator
6.9g rollers
ZX Trans
1.5k Contra, 4k shoe springs
16/42 Gears
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