86 Honda Spree won't start I've tried everything

Trying to get your Spree/Elite to run, or run better? Post your questions here.

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joseneedshelp
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Re: 86 Honda Spree won't start I've tried everything

Post by joseneedshelp »

Okay. I dont think I can do #1 because I dont have a big bore. If i grind the teeth off will it still run the as if it had the fuel pump running in order? Some other questions:
Do i still drain the crankcase? If yes how does one drain it and also will the fuel pump/draining help with my compression issue and will the scooter most likely run?
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Re: 86 Honda Spree won't start I've tried everything

Post by eclark5483 »

You don't need a BBK. And if you grind off the gears, there is no going back and you will have to run premix. Again on a stock piston, you'd want to use 40:1. If grinding off gears seems too extreme, see if that pump is turning and not stuck. Meatball outlined a POSSIBILITY that it is stuck because of how it was drained and capped, but this isn't an absolute, you may have gotten lucky depending on how much the bike was used after the damage was done with the drain and snip. To drain the oil in the crank case, you'll have to tip it over after removing the oil pump (get a friend to help), and drain from there, you could maybe try siphoning it if you can find a tube narrow enough, but that might prove difficult. Another thing you can do, is just unbolt the engine from the frame and pull it out and dump it that way... kind of tedious, but easy for 1 person to do. You'll get it going, don't worry about that. Honda engines are solid. But first lets work on fixing the crank case and oil pump issues. How would YOU personally prefer the bike? Pump or premix? We'll help ya get there.
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Re: 86 Honda Spree won't start I've tried everything

Post by eclark5483 »

Oh, one more thing, manually turn the piston rod till it's at about top dead center before draining to increase the chances of getting the most oil out.
Last edited by eclark5483 on Tue May 21, 2019 8:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 86 Honda Spree won't start I've tried everything

Post by eclark5483 »

So a theory I have here about why so much oil is in there, is perhaps the oil ring was worn out, which will in turn, cause excessive oil to drain into the crank case. So the previous guy might have thought the pump failed, which, again, is just a myth. So instead of replacing a 30 year old $3.95 rubber ring which naturally deteriorates with age, decided to run premix instead. This extra 32:1 over saturation that he was using, finally caught up with what was already on the bottom of the crank case, thus, the bike died. Just a theory, but sounds plausible to me and would explain why it ran for a while then all of a sudden quit.

EDIT: The good news here, is at least the piston was well lubricated. :smile: And you'll probably need to BBQ the muffler, probably saturated the heII out of that too.
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Re: 86 Honda Spree won't start I've tried everything

Post by joseneedshelp »

Yeah muffler is ugly lol, makes noises when i shake it too. So i pulled out the pump with ease and it turns it was also pretty lubricated. The ring doesnt seem to be hard either but i already ordered a replacement. Ill get to draining the motor tomorrow morning by myself by taking it off. There also seemed to be a leak around the oil pump/cylinder area here are some pics.
https://gyazo.com/9b66eee7ed6550e22c178177260166a9
https://gyazo.com/083c3757cd0cb93db677230b26cc3f90
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Re: 86 Honda Spree won't start I've tried everything

Post by Meatball »

The green arrows show where the base gasket was beginning to fail...the red shows complete failure. This is likely the contributing factor for the oil slick and running issues. Keep in mind that the motor acts as a pump with every revolution and the whole system from air filter to muffler exit needs to be sealed completely. If oil is being forced out somewhere on the downstroke, you can bet your azz that air is being sucked in on the upstroke causing the air/fuel mixture to be haywire.

Also, since the motor was ran while swimming in oil, I would bet oil was also spewing from the exhaust connection at the header as well. A new exhaust crush washer is needed every time its removed to ensure a proper seal. Precisely why Noiseguy sells them in packs of 5. One time use on those.
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Re: 86 Honda Spree won't start I've tried everything

Post by joseneedshelp »

Yeah I see the exhaust washer is pretty beat up. What do i do about the seal failures? Will it stop leaking once i fix the pump and drain out the crankcase or is there another gasket i should buy
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Re: 86 Honda Spree won't start I've tried everything

Post by Meatball »

Youll need this kit:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Honda-Spree-NQ ... 8258!US!-1

Send Noiseguy a message and request he add a Base Gasket to your order since I dont see where he sells them separately. Whatever he charges for it will be cheaper than you’ll find anywhere else. Wouldnt hurt to have him add a new Carbon Fiber Reed while youre at it.

Its critical to remove 100% of the old gasket meterial before installation. I use a razor blade and take my time. Use extra caution not to gouge the gasket surface. I like to pretend Im a brain surgeon performing a life-saving procedure. Dont forget to have fun when working on your scooter.

Always refer to the Service Manual for torque specs. Just reefing bolts down tight isnt how you assemble a motor.
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Re: 86 Honda Spree won't start I've tried everything

Post by joseneedshelp »

Okay, I will hold off on draining the engine until the gaskets arrive. Anything I should change while the engine is off? And will there be a glue or seal type thing or should i buy it separately.
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Re: 86 Honda Spree won't start I've tried everything

Post by Meatball »

Ive had success in getting a good seal on stock parts with only a paper gasket installed. Only when the mating surfaces are absolutely clean and perfect. However, when building with race parts I always use a sealant with the gasket for added insurance. Ive used Hondabond/Yamabond and Ive also tried copper gasket spray. Both methods have never failed me yet!

Stick with a NEW paper gasket with CLEAN surfaces on your stock parts and you’ll be fine.
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Re: 86 Honda Spree won't start I've tried everything

Post by Wheelman-111 »

Greetings:

After RIGOROUS cleaning of the mating surfaces as Meatball suggested, don't leave the tiniest Speck of old gasket, here's another strategy for base (NOT Head!) gasket installation: Smear some high-temperature grease on both sides of the paper gasket prior to installation. I use Harley-Davidson's "Special Purpose" (one of the all-time best names for a petroleum product!) grease, applied with a welder's brush. This accomplishes 3 things:
1. The grease holds the gasket in place as you lower the cylinder onto it.
2. It pre-impregnates the paper and assists oil-tightness under compression, and
3. Should you ever have to disassemble, I've found the parts come apart cleaner, and makes the next clean-up a lot easier. Occasionally I've been able to re-assemble without a new gasket, although I don't recommend this generally.
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Re: 86 Honda Spree won't start I've tried everything

Post by joseneedshelp »

Gaskets get here tomorrow. Two things:
I’m taking off the gaskets but there is a bunch of residue i can’t get get with the razor, can i use like goo gone to take it off?
Second, I took out the oil pump again and took a closer look and some of the teeth look chipped and some have little dents. Could this mean anything? should i still try to install the oil system back or do i just fully grind the teeth and go with the 40:1
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Re: 86 Honda Spree won't start I've tried everything

Post by Meatball »

joseneedshelp wrote: Mon May 27, 2019 11:08 pmsome of the teeth look chipped and some have little dents.....should i still try to install the oil system back
Personally, I would not install visibly damaged parts into a motor. I would either source a pump with good teeth, grind the teeth off or remove the pump altogether and intall a pump plug.

Or you could roll the dice, say a prayer, cross your fingers and install the bad toothed pump. Then hope your motor doesnt grenade. Your baby...your call.

As far as removing gasket residue, use any means necessary that doesnt damage the surface. Basically dont dig at it and shave away any soft aluminum. Ive never had any luck using solvents, they seem to be largely ineffective. You can be a bit more aggressive with the cast iron jug piece since its cast iron but dont use a wire brush or anything that would scratch. Also, be careful not to drop any chunks into your crankcase.
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Re: 86 Honda Spree won't start I've tried everything

Post by eclark5483 »

Checked a bit ago. Saw a guy selling 4 of them on eBay for like $20. I'd sell ya one of mine, but I'm kind of a Spree parts hoarder. Intakes and carbs I have no problem getting rid of, pumps are another story. The thing about running a pump, is it runs linear. Meaning, it put's out "X" amount during lower RPM and increases as the RPM's go up as well. What that actually is, is unknown and as far as any of us know, un-documented. But more then likely, it's giving you about 50:1 at idle, and somewhere between 32:1-40:1 at higher RPM. Best personal guess, is it peaks at 36:1

But anyways, here is that link to the auction I was referring: https://www.ebay.com/itm/352665335404

I'm guessing the chips and dents were caused from running dry. I wouldn't use it again.

EDIT: And if you do go with a replacement, for sure put a new ring in it!! ALWAYS REPLACE THOSE RINGS!!
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Re: 86 Honda Spree won't start I've tried everything

Post by joseneedshelp »

Okay so the engine is off and i cleaned it up a bit. Where is the oil suppose to come out of? When i flip it nothing comes out unless i lean it towards this black rubber house then little drops of oil drip. Am I suppose to just drain it from that hose?
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