1986 nq50 hard to get started

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jranilovich
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1986 nq50 hard to get started

Post by jranilovich » Wed Aug 07, 2019 2:37 pm

Hi All,

I'm looking for some advice i have a 1986 spree that i have been having a hard to to get started. once it is started and warmed up it will start right up but after about 10 mins it will just crank and i have to put a battery charger on it at full boost and can get it to start again but it cranks for about 10 seconds while giving it throtle before it will start up. it also seems to have a vibration at 20mph that my other 3 sprees don't have.

Here is everything i have done / fixed

Carb has been fully cleaned. have tried all 3 carbs i have from all my other perfectly running sprees (that i have rebuilt )
Has brand new top end with rings and piston
checked both crank seals both are in place
compression is 120
put a new plug in numerous times NGK 7022
Have good spark strong blue spark have tried new CDI and COIL
Has new stator that was why it wouldn't start when i first boughtit (no spoark some one had to long of screws for fan and destroyed stator ) and then i procceded to overhaul the top end because it has 7,000 miles and had low comression.
air filter new and oiled with seal in top.
muffler has been on the fire twice just to be safe.
has brand new battery 12v5ah

Any advise would be great..

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Re: 1986 nq50 hard to get started

Post by eclark5483 » Wed Aug 07, 2019 4:09 pm

Checked reeds?
3 Sprees
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1 Indian AMI-50
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Re: 1986 nq50 hard to get started

Post by eclark5483 » Wed Aug 07, 2019 4:12 pm

Also, is the new CDI a Honda brand or ebay cheapy? Best CDI for a Spree is stock, aftermarket ones are nothing but cheap junk that can make the trouble worse.
3 Sprees
1 ATM50-A1
1 Indian AMI-50
The World's Greatest Spree: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lU49lL_Xx4s
Want to make a Spree engine go fast? CLICK HERE: LINK

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Re: 1986 nq50 hard to get started

Post by jranilovich » Thu Aug 08, 2019 9:56 am

Sorry tried to include everything.

yes the reeds are in great shape they sit nice and flush and have good spring to them.(is there anything else i could be missing about them?)
ALl parts i've used have all been good working Honda parts off of my 3 good running sprees. only after market part was cyclinder head and piston cause i couldn't find honda ones.
I'm starting to lean tward checking the rings again, when i installed them there was no makrings on them and from what i could tell from a magnifying glass they are installed correctly.. i was goning to check that tonight i didn't have time last night to mess around with it.

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Re: 1986 nq50 hard to get started

Post by eclark5483 » Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:45 am

So, I'm just wondering if maybe that petcock is clogged or dirty. Have you tried disconnecting the fuel line and placing it into a jar or something and cranking a few times, or perhaps giving it some vacuum to see if fuel is coming out?
3 Sprees
1 ATM50-A1
1 Indian AMI-50
The World's Greatest Spree: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lU49lL_Xx4s
Want to make a Spree engine go fast? CLICK HERE: LINK

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Re: 1986 nq50 hard to get started

Post by jranilovich » Thu Aug 08, 2019 12:47 pm

Petcock is working great fuel only flows when vacuum is applies..

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Re: 1986 nq50 hard to get started

Post by jranilovich » Thu Aug 08, 2019 10:22 pm

So took the top end apart and the brand new piston was all scored up on the exhaust port side .and brand new cylinder was all scratches up .. like feel with your fingernail * up ...
1st question how does that happen so quick with a brand new kit.. it was a neich set..
2nd can you ball hone out a bad cylinder I've seen mixed opinions on that.. I have a ball hone that size can I clean it up and put new piston and rings or will it f*** up the exhaust pot profile??
What is a good set to buy I'm thinking about honda piston and rings from Babbitt? Could this cylinder be s*** and eating up the piston and rings?

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Re: 1986 nq50 hard to get started

Post by eclark5483 » Fri Aug 09, 2019 1:09 am

Did you add extra oil in the tank for break in, in addition to the pump? 80:1 In the tank to help the piston seat right. I wouldn't try a rehone, probably won't help, but for sure use a Honda brand piston and rings.
3 Sprees
1 ATM50-A1
1 Indian AMI-50
The World's Greatest Spree: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lU49lL_Xx4s
Want to make a Spree engine go fast? CLICK HERE: LINK

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Re: 1986 nq50 hard to get started

Post by bonesv » Fri Aug 09, 2019 7:00 am

You will need to have it bored to next over-size and new piston/rings. Ring gaps face away from the exhaust port. Follow break-in procedures.
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Re: 1986 nq50 hard to get started

Post by jranilovich » Fri Aug 09, 2019 8:04 am

eclark5483 wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 1:09 am
Did you add extra oil in the tank for break in, in addition to the pump? 80:1 In the tank to help the piston seat right. I wouldn't try a rehone, probably won't help, but for sure use a Honda brand piston and rings.

I didn't add extra oil i never thought about that. 80:1 for first couple tanks?? or 100miles?

What is the break in procedure i didn't see anything in the service manual that said anything about how to break them in correctly . i added a little 2 stroke oil to the cylinder and then let it idle for about 45 mins and then took it around the block..

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Re: 1986 nq50 hard to get started

Post by bonesv » Fri Aug 09, 2019 9:03 am

jranilovich wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 8:04 am
eclark5483 wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 1:09 am
Did you add extra oil in the tank for break in, in addition to the pump? 80:1 In the tank to help the piston seat right. I wouldn't try a rehone, probably won't help, but for sure use a Honda brand piston and rings.

I didn't add extra oil i never thought about that. 80:1 for first couple tanks?? or 100miles?

What is the break in procedure i didn't see anything in the service manual that said anything about how to break them in correctly . i added a little 2 stroke oil to the cylinder and then let it idle for about 45 mins and then took it around the block..
Dude, Google is one of many places to get information. Or you can ask someone here. Yes, there are many opinions but at least you will have a better idea than just warming it up and riding it around the block. I know it's painful to re-do the work again so here's my advice.......
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Re: 1986 nq50 hard to get started

Post by eclark5483 » Fri Aug 09, 2019 1:38 pm

I'd go probably 2 tanks with an extra 80:1. These Spree piston kits get a bad rap, and for the most part, rightfully so. But you must consider, whenever you install a new piston and rings, the engine is going to generate a lot more heat until the rings and the cylinder wall have married each other. This also helps raise final compression. Since it will be generating more heat, and of course heat makes things expand, you have to be extra precautious on a 2 stroke. Remember, the engine doesn't have oil flowing into it and circulating around like a 4 stroke would, it relies on a mixture coming in through the intake that will first travel under the piston, through the boost port, and to the top along with the fuel. And the amount that is in the fuel would generally be just enough to lubricate. Your fuel itself actually cools the engine down, not the oil, and since the oil in the pump is doing it's normal job, there isn't much extra available to help the piston break in.

The nice thing about a 2 stroke though, is what oil there is that does lubricate, is always fresh, unlike a 4 stroke which recirculates it. An interesting side note for reference. The reason you see many manufacturers suggest running a standard weight conventional oil for break in on a 4 stroke, and then switch to synthetic afterwards, is because conventional oil doesn't lubricate as well as synthetic. Now why would that matter? Well, what the hope is, is that the weaker lubrication will generate just enough extra heat to break in the rings more evenly. This break in period can, and most times does, create very tiny metal flakes. This is why when breaking in say a 4 stroke scooter, you need to do frequent oil changes.. like every 50-100 miles. On a 2 stroke, those extra little bits and shaving of metal from the rings and cylinder will have nowhere to go except out the exhaust port. So a bit extra oil in the tank will absolutely help this process along and prevent them from accumulating on the cylinder wall.

The Spree aftermarket kits have a high fail rate because, lets face it, the Spree is a poorly designed engine with an intake/oil pump system that was made to give "just enough" oil and fuel. My recommendation for the next attempt, would not only be an extra 80:1, but also use Pro Honda GN2 injector oil. It's the only brand Honda endorses for these older scooters. If you can't find it locally, you can get it on Amazon and other online retailers. And again, use a Honda piston and Honda rings. The pistons are usually on back order so it might be quicker to search eBay for one, the rings should be readily available. If you can't find one, and need to go aftermarket on the piston, would recommend one of Taz's kits here: https://www.ebay.com/itm/372483631223
3 Sprees
1 ATM50-A1
1 Indian AMI-50
The World's Greatest Spree: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lU49lL_Xx4s
Want to make a Spree engine go fast? CLICK HERE: LINK

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eclark5483
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Re: 1986 nq50 hard to get started

Post by eclark5483 » Sat Aug 10, 2019 1:43 pm

BTW, if you need a new (well used) cylinder, I have a couple to get rid of:

Image
3 Sprees
1 ATM50-A1
1 Indian AMI-50
The World's Greatest Spree: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lU49lL_Xx4s
Want to make a Spree engine go fast? CLICK HERE: LINK

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Re: 1986 nq50 hard to get started

Post by jranilovich » Sun Aug 11, 2019 4:40 pm

eclark5483 wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 1:38 pm
I'd go probably 2 tanks with an extra 80:1. These Spree piston kits get a bad rap, and for the most part, rightfully so. But you must consider, whenever you install a new piston and rings, the engine is going to generate a lot more heat until the rings and the cylinder wall have married each other. This also helps raise final compression. Since it will be generating more heat, and of course heat makes things expand, you have to be extra precautious on a 2 stroke. Remember, the engine doesn't have oil flowing into it and circulating around like a 4 stroke would, it relies on a mixture coming in through the intake that will first travel under the piston, through the boost port, and to the top along with the fuel. And the amount that is in the fuel would generally be just enough to lubricate. Your fuel itself actually cools the engine down, not the oil, and since the oil in the pump is doing it's normal job, there isn't much extra available to help the piston break in.

The nice thing about a 2 stroke though, is what oil there is that does lubricate, is always fresh, unlike a 4 stroke which recirculates it. An interesting side note for reference. The reason you see many manufacturers suggest running a standard weight conventional oil for break in on a 4 stroke, and then switch to synthetic afterwards, is because conventional oil doesn't lubricate as well as synthetic. Now why would that matter? Well, what the hope is, is that the weaker lubrication will generate just enough extra heat to break in the rings more evenly. This break in period can, and most times does, create very tiny metal flakes. This is why when breaking in say a 4 stroke scooter, you need to do frequent oil changes.. like every 50-100 miles. On a 2 stroke, those extra little bits and shaving of metal from the rings and cylinder will have nowhere to go except out the exhaust port. So a bit extra oil in the tank will absolutely help this process along and prevent them from accumulating on the cylinder wall.

The Spree aftermarket kits have a high fail rate because, lets face it, the Spree is a poorly designed engine with an intake/oil pump system that was made to give "just enough" oil and fuel. My recommendation for the next attempt, would not only be an extra 80:1, but also use Pro Honda GN2 injector oil. It's the only brand Honda endorses for these older scooters. If you can't find it locally, you can get it on Amazon and other online retailers. And again, use a Honda piston and Honda rings. The pistons are usually on back order so it might be quicker to search eBay for one, the rings should be readily available. If you can't find one, and need to go aftermarket on the piston, would recommend one of Taz's kits here: https://www.ebay.com/itm/372483631223
Man thank you for the advise I have a new piston and ring set otw honda ones, do you think I should use the new cylinder I got with the kit I was going to clean up the ports and re hone it.. or would I be better off going with a good used one.. if so I would be will to buy one of the cylinders that you have..I have been running Hinda g2 oil in the tank.. are you saying to make my premixed 80:1 with gn2 oil?sorry if I'm getting annoying just want to make sure I have everything covered this time.. my wife is getting a little anxious for her scooter to be ready...

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Re: 1986 nq50 hard to get started

Post by eclark5483 » Sun Aug 11, 2019 6:18 pm

Yes, GN2 In the pump, and an additional 80:1 GN2 in the tank, and I'll sell you a cylinder for just the cost of shipping. I have no use for it, and I have never been one seeking profit for my stuff. I'm cooking supper at the moment I'll post a couple pictures of each of the cylinders on the inside and you can choose the one you want they both are in really good condition
3 Sprees
1 ATM50-A1
1 Indian AMI-50
The World's Greatest Spree: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lU49lL_Xx4s
Want to make a Spree engine go fast? CLICK HERE: LINK

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