87' Aero 50 Issue from a stop

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crippy
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87' Aero 50 Issue from a stop

Post by crippy »

Hey everyone...I know this will be really hard to describe without a video, but I will try my best.

Basically I don't remember changing anything from when I got it (this is all months ago), but one day, from a stop it started some major hesitation to the point where it would actually "grab" and I would feel a kick and then it would go. I replaced the CVT Belt, re-lubed everything and re-assembled but it did not help at all.

Fast forward a few months to today, and I had taken it apart at least 2 more times to inspect / relube...still didn't help.
It is now having the issue right as I get on the throttle from a stop...it's like vrvrvrvrvr kick - then I'll go...I'm having a hard time pinning anything down exactly, I cleaned the carb and tuned it, but that did not help the issue...revs fine after and feels good and peppy.

It almost feels like the rear wheel is slipping, but I have no way to confirm...I don't feel like I'm loosing balance it just feels like vibrating until I get that kick.

Has anyone had any experience?
The variator rollers did not look flat spotted to me either, the clutch shoes looked like they had material left on them...springs maybe?

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Throttle Closed Comp Test:
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bonesv
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Re: 87' Aero 50 Issue from a stop

Post by bonesv »

Look to the part you changed. The belt. Was it the "correct" size? The belt may have been worn beyond specs and you could have replaced it with a belt that was not the spec belt but an aftermarket "close fit". Where did you get the belt? Which belt is it specifically? Also, I see the variator looks kinda burned and could be an indication of slippage? Have you "greased" the rollers or anything in the drive pulleys? I see you have greased the inner driven pulley and did you notice the driven pulley having any grease outside of the inner pulley cavity?:surprise:
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Re: 87' Aero 50 Issue from a stop

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Hey Bonesv! Thank you for the reply! I have been really struggling with this issue and it has been hard to get help.

I am going to show in order, the old belt, then the new belt. Then at the end, today I changed my springs with new old stock springs and I will show and talk about that at the end.

(FYI this is all probably from July until the new information today at the bottom)
First, the replacement belt is a SYM - B - 23100 - GR1 - 0030 Bando belt.
The part number off of ebay was listed: Manufacturer Part Number: 23100-GR1-0030
The listing details specified: "634X15.50X30 is the size of this drive belt"

The original Honda V matic was I believe the same a 23100-GR1-0030 belt. (Pictures below of course)
On Honda Parts House, if you drill down to the actual belt number, it is listed as: 23100-GG2-751
https://www.hondapartshouse.com/oempart ... belt-drive

When I took my readings, if I "squeezed" the belts with my calipers, the old read in the 13mm range, and the new read in the 14.5mm range....the book did call for 15.5mm "normal" thickness.

Original Belt, never taken apart before:
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New SYM Belt:
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Comparison shot, new belt in back, old in front.
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New belt fitted (note it has to be shoved down in the rear pulley to barely fit over the variator)
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I can try for an additional belt if you do think this could be a case...

New additional information

I had always thought it felt like the clutch springs, so I ordered a set of new old stock clutch springs, with the exact part numbers.
Today I replaced the clutch springs and contra spring...it ran PERFECT....for 5 miles and then it started again :cry: :cry: :cry:
Every stop was buttery smooth nice rev up then a shift all smooth.
It did feel like the revs were actually a little bit higher than normal...going 30 say felt from the revs like I would normally be going 35....

Then it started up again after about 5 miles, every stop it would vrvrv kick and then go...I'm not sure if it is temp related...back in July when the original issue came about it was probably about 95 F, now it was around 80 F.

This has kinda' happened in the past too, when I would open it back up to inspect / clean / relube it would act normal for a stop or 2 then it would start back up again.

Pictures from today:

OLD VS New the old ones did a weird bend when I poped them out with a pic:
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Contra Spring comparison shot. LEFT - New RIGHT - Old
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I cleaned the variator face with scotchbrite:
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I am honestly at a loss at this point...so frustrated I've probably had this thing apart 10 times literally. :cry: :oops:

As far as your other questions, when I originally replaced the belt, I disassembled the variator, removed all old grease, then regreased lightly.
The next time I opened it up, cleaned it again and regreased the variator and sliders, as well as the rear driven pulley.
I did not see any excessive grease on the surface of the driven face pulley where it slides around.

The plastic seals on the inner driven face, have a plastic outer 'lip' and then a metal inside for both upper and lower seals...is that normal?
Ex looking at the inside of the round seal from left to right: plastic lip, metal band, plastic lip.
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Re: 87' Aero 50 Issue from a stop

Post by bonesv »

It sounds to me like after you clean everything up and reassemble, then ride for a short time before****it happens****It may be that there's lubrication (grease) getting in and on places where it should not. Honda, at some point in the 1990's, addressed an issue I think, by removing the instruction to grease the rollers and said not to use grease in the variator, rollers. I have always removed the cover on the back of the variators of my sa50's which were still sometimes filled with grease. It was also noticed an increase in top speed in every instance! I was amazed and pleased!
So my suggestion is to clean out/remove ALL grease from the belt, variator, rollers and ditch that rear variator cover and be sure there is no grease anywhere in the belt cavity other than inside the rear pulley (clutch assembly) to lubricate the bearings and moveable rear sheaves. You should not use any grease on, or around the clutch shoes as it may "fling" it all over the place and could cause your problem again. You do not want grease inside your clutch bell either! So no grease! If grease or oil were to get on the drive belt or pulley sheaves, it could cause the symptoms you have described. Worse, it could cause over-heating and premature failure of other parts while riding, possibly leaving you stranded in an undesirable shopping plaza or a no longer open for business, roadside cafe. Please let us know if any improvement occurs!
I :thumbwink:
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Re: 87' Aero 50 Issue from a stop

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bonesv wrote: Sun Oct 04, 2020 1:28 am It sounds to me like after you clean everything up and reassemble, then ride for a short time before****it happens****It may be that there's lubrication (grease) getting in and on places where it should not. Honda, at some point in the 1990's, addressed an issue I think, by removing the instruction to grease the rollers and said not to use grease in the variator, rollers. I have always removed the cover on the back of the variators of my sa50's which were still sometimes filled with grease. It was also noticed an increase in top speed in every instance! I was amazed and pleased!
So my suggestion is to clean out/remove ALL grease from the belt, variator, rollers and ditch that rear variator cover and be sure there is no grease anywhere in the belt cavity other than inside the rear pulley (clutch assembly) to lubricate the bearings and moveable rear sheaves. You should not use any grease on, or around the clutch shoes as it may "fling" it all over the place and could cause your problem again. You do not want grease inside your clutch bell either! So no grease! If grease or oil were to get on the drive belt or pulley sheaves, it could cause the symptoms you have described. Worse, it could cause over-heating and premature failure of other parts while riding, possibly leaving you stranded in an undesirable shopping plaza or a no longer open for business, roadside cafe. Please let us know if any improvement occurs!
I :thumbwink:
Thank you much! I will clean all the old grease out!

After re-watching a lot of experienced YouTuber videos I noticed that I am pinching the belt when I put my variator half back on as well and a few other little things to check.
I think I may also eventually re-order a new belt if it doesn't stop.

I'll keep the updates coming when I get them!
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Re: 87' Aero 50 Issue from a stop

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Re: 87' Aero 50 Issue from a stop

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bonesv wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 2:22 pm https://www.ebay.com/itm/1994-thru-2001 ... SwbTNerXhA
This is where I get belts from....
Oh wow! That is exactly where I got my new belt from too! Maybe it is okay then...I was just a bit skeptical because it was a SYM branded belt
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Re: 87' Aero 50 Issue from a stop

Post by bonesv »

crippy wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 2:19 pm

Thank you much! I will clean all the old grease out!

After re-watching a lot of experienced YouTuber videos I noticed that I am pinching the belt when I put my variator half back on as well and a few other little things to check.
I think I may also eventually re-order a new belt if it doesn't stop.

I'll keep the updates coming when I get them!
Very important to not pinch the belt as this can ruin the crankshaft splines and worse, making the c/s unusable. I always install the front pulleys first, then, I install the belt and finally open the clutch sheaves to allow the belt to drop into the middle of the sheaves to slide the whole clutch assembly onto the clutch shaft, then install the clutch bell and nut.
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Re: 87' Aero 50 Issue from a stop

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crippy wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 2:27 pm
bonesv wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 2:22 pm https://www.ebay.com/itm/1994-thru-2001 ... SwbTNerXhA
This is where I get belts from....
Oh wow! That is exactly where I got my new belt from too! Maybe it is okay then...I was just a bit skeptical because it was a SYM branded belt
Oh My bad! You have an Aero! The link I show is for the sa50 elite af16 motor. :oops:
You should be ok. I trust the guy at VT cycles. I still think your problem is from the grease issue.......
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Re: 87' Aero 50 Issue from a stop

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Okay, just as more info, I just took it apart after it was having the issue and it was immediately parked.

It looks like to me the rear pulley and belt seems a bit "down deep" in that rear driver? Thoughts? Maybe not now I'm looking at it, the belt has no more slack to give?

(IF you right click and hit "view image" it makes them much bigger)

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The yellow stuff didn't feel super oily, but it looks like my finger did leave a smudge on it though.
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I need to go and get my big tools / sockets so it may be a little while before the next update after I take it apart, clean, and then ride again.
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Re: 87' Aero 50 Issue from a stop

Post by bonesv »

Remove the back cover off of the variator and leave it off
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Re: 87' Aero 50 Issue from a stop

Post by crippy »

Well, I have good news! I disassembled everything like we talked about, removing the grease, and slowly methodically measured everything the manual outlined looking for below spec items.

It looked to me the clutch shoes were worn way down in a sloped fashion...meaning that the shoes looked beefy and fat from the front, but flip it over and they were pretty darn thin. This generally makes sense being a new rider, I did a ton of parking lot practice and very slow takeoffs.

I swapped it out for a Polini 3G clutch pack, as others were out of stock, and this one came with a second set of springs should I desire to swap them out for a more sporty takeoff.

It turns out the "thud / kick" I had previously mentioned was the actual clutch finally grabbing after spinning and spinning. As with the new clutch it has a slightly more stiff clutch spring out of the box, so you feel that kick as this new clutch engages. If you even check some of my other photos, it may show the clutch shoes glazed. I didn't know this was bad until I did a ton of research.

Here is the link to the clutch page. I was really pleased with scootertuning.ca and they have an entire Aero AF05 section to shop from.
https://www.scootertuning.ca/en/clutchs ... &results=1

Hope this might help somebody in the future. I have rode it twice for a total of 30 miles without the issue returning. If it does return, I may end up replacing the clutch bell too as I'm sure it was over heated / worn from all the clutch slippage that was going on.

Here are some of my pictures comparing the two clutches:

Removed ALL the grease from the variator assembly , and most of the grease from the rear driven face...just for insurance...may add some for the rear driven face back later just for wear protection.
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Variator face just for anybody who might find this in the future with a similar issue
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Old clutch left, new right...Initially they look identical right?? hardly any wear
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Until you flip them over, you can really see the difference here.
Taking the measurements from the book, the original clutch measured from the tiny ridge of "shiny" or main shoe material down to that more coarse brown base material about .900mm to 1.2mm which was below spec.
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Here is another look at the old clutch, you can see that "ridge" of main clutch material...when I look closely at the book it looked to me that it wanted you to measure how tall that ridge is.
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Measurement of the Polini clutch shoe material all the way down to the shiny metal base
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Clutch put back together facing upward...again you can see how easily it looks like the original clutch has tons of material from the front again, but that is not the case as we just saw.
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So that's all I have to report, needless to say if anything changes I'll update the post...I really hope this can help somebody in the future, it took me probably 12+ times disassembling and reassembling since August to finally address the problem and not have it immediately return.

If anyone has any tips, questions, or comments I'd love to hear them too!

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