Kick Start Gears and Oil Pump Question

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shanebell618
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Kick Start Gears and Oil Pump Question

Post by shanebell618 »

1986 Spree

Both the half moon gear and the circular gear are missing teeth and causing slipping and jamming. Does anyone know where I can buy these two gears aftermarket or oem?

Second question, my oil pump seal is completely shot. The crankcase fills with oil after just a week of sitting. Should I just try to find a used pump on ebay, or is there a way to replace the seal with my current pump? I would rather not switch to premix.

Thanks
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rkizewski@yahoo.com
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Re: Kick Start Gears and Oil Pump Question

Post by rkizewski@yahoo.com »

Hey Shane, So I'm seeing that no one else is writing so I am also a noob and I've been grappling with this question as well. There are spots in this forum that talk about these parts but here you go with what little I know:

So typically the kickstart is supposed to be on an 86 or newer spree. They can be placed on an older one (84-85) as long as you replace everything to match at the same time. So, that's going to be the cover from a newer bike with the kickstart attached and also the driven gear (because it has six catch points for the kickstart).

So the part number you'll need for the half-moon gear is "Spindle, Kick Starter PN 28250-GN2-000 (42T)" The part is called a Kick Starter Spindle and it has 42 teeth. As to finding one, I (supposedly) have one arriving that I found on the internet two weeks ago. I don't know what to tell you, they are very difficult to find, new anyway. The place I found it was from Central Maine Powersports and when I checked the website yesterday, all of those parts for the kickstart are listed as discontinued. I called them and they said it shipped. Today is the delivery date, so we'll see. Here's that website (drilled down to the 1986 Spree kickstart page): https://centralmainepowersports.com/Sho ... 77dc18321c ((If this is the correct part, I'm considering talking to a friend who fabricates in steel and seeing if I can't get him to recreate the half moon))

Anyway, so I'm not sure which other gear you are looking for. The circular gear is probably identified as "Starter Driven Gear PN 28211-GR2-000 (50T)" I finally found one through an eBay picker. It is used. I think you're going to have to look for a salvageable gear like I did. Usually they don't go bad so I don't know what to say. You can see it, and I can't.

Also that will show on the page listed above. I have a theory that I could have tried to purchase a driven gear without the catch points (different part number and available on line) and welded the catch points onto it. That's a possibility for you.

Anything else, I will try to help as I can with limited knowledge. Good luck Spree rider.
:nerd: 1986 Honda Spree NQ50
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rkizewski@yahoo.com
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Re: Kick Start Gears and Oil Pump Question

Post by rkizewski@yahoo.com »

Sorry, I forgot about the other question. I think I've seen the oil pumps on ebay. Otherwise a parts bike is the way to go, my friend. Here's a link to a discussion on this website. Also, remember the search box above. You can search this site for more information. http://hondaspree.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=12682
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Re: Kick Start Gears and Oil Pump Question

Post by rkizewski@yahoo.com »

Out of curiosity, isn't the seal on the oil pump just an o-ring?
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Re: Kick Start Gears and Oil Pump Question

Post by rkizewski@yahoo.com »

Hi so this is kinda for everyone. I thought I'd ordered the correct kick starter spindle P/N 28250-GN2-000 (42T). What I received by UPS today was kick starter spindle P/N 28250-GN2-601 (42T) (for a Honda NB50A I guess). Looking at it, it seems to be a mirror image to what I do need. I will talk to a friend tomorrow and have it unwelded, turned around and welded back together. This should work for me. I wanted a kick starter, it will add a little to the project, but I will have a kick starter.

If you really want something bad enough, you will make it work.

I'm not sure anyone is actually following this but I will report once it's done.
:nerd: 1986 Honda Spree NQ50
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Re: Kick Start Gears and Oil Pump Question

Post by shanebell618 »

Just an update. Got a chance to take a closer look at the gears today. rkizewski yeah all the new half moon gears I have seen online are basically the opposite direction. I think most gy6 engines use that design.

One of the teeth had kind of bent over, I was able to chip away the metal in between the teeth, and then hand file some of the rough edges. This makes it usable but definitely not perfect. Luckily my electric start does still work but I try not to use it too much.

The other driven/circular gear has a tooth almost completely broken off, but it still seems to operate and catch fine.

The oil pump does use an oring around the outer top part as a dust seal. But there is an internal seal that goes bad over time, thus leaking oil into the engine when sitting for a while. Mine has gotten really bad and will fill the engine up with oil pretty quickly which hydrolocks the engine the next time I try to start it.

I need to find a good used oil pump I guess. I almost wonder about putting a shut off valve up by the oil tank. Or just delete and run premix.
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Re: Kick Start Gears and Oil Pump Question

Post by rkizewski@yahoo.com »

I brought the kick starter gears (new and old) to work today, erroneously believing that I could just turn it around and reweld it. That won't work. I need to find the gear either in the opposite direction or use this new gear as a pattern to create a reverse gear. I don't mind being out the $50 or so dollars but I'm still going to have to come up with a plan for this.

I guess the real problem is that I can create a half moon like the original. I can even use a 3 1/2" grinder to create the teeth. Probably won't be perfect but close enough. Doesn't exactly look like tolerances are that big of a deal with something like this.

I guess what I'd like to do is create a pattern where a company could create these on an as needed basis. Then as long as you have the spindle from the old one, just have it welded and we'd be good to go.

That leaves the question of whether Honda has the gear copywritten or something. And even if it's not, would it be cost effective to create a gear here and there.

I will still study this.
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Re: Kick Start Gears and Oil Pump Question

Post by rkizewski@yahoo.com »

I turned the kick starter over to my oldest stepson who is in Tech School. He thinks they can do it on a computerized machine over there. I said that if the pieces are reasonable, I'd like to buy a few extra. We both think that it would be easiest to create a bunch of circles and then cut them in half.

At any rate, when that is done, I will probably be looking to sell the extras at the lowest possible price, just my cost and shipping. That would work for anyone with a bad gear with a spindle.

Hopefully this will be continued in less than two weeks.
:nerd: 1986 Honda Spree NQ50
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Re: Kick Start Gears and Oil Pump Question

Post by motormike »

Yes, people are watching...motor
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Re: Kick Start Gears and Oil Pump Question

Post by rkizewski@yahoo.com »

One other thing. It occurred to me that no matter how cheap the gears turn out to be and how many I will have made, I have also asked my stepson to create a pattern, or blueprint of the gear. (whatever the proper term is) I want it to be able to be replicated as easily as possible for future needs.

That will get turned over to the forum for the benefit of the rest of us.
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Re: Kick Start Gears and Oil Pump Question

Post by rkizewski@yahoo.com »

Reply from Honda concerning the blueprint for the gear:

Thank you for contacting American Honda regarding your part inquiry. We want to thank you for providing us the opportunity to respond to your message, and we apologize for our delay in replying back to you.

Unfortunately we are not able to provide the blueprint for the kickstart gear that you are seeking, as it is considered proprietary information. We recommend visiting vpartsinc.com at their website or contact phone number 877-846-8243 to check for vintage parts availability. We apologize for any inconvenience this may cause.


Not enjoying the mission. My stepson is still looking into having the part reversed-engineered into a blueprint. He is saying that no one currently working at the tech school knows how to scan the gear. Unreal!
:nerd: 1986 Honda Spree NQ50
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Re: Kick Start Gears and Oil Pump Question

Post by kuromi »

Do you have any pictures of the broken kickstart parts?

There might be a match with a different Honda scooter not sold in the US.
The UK market Melodys all had kickstarters and there was a variety of engine types - might be one of them matches?
1983 Melody Deluxe II / ND50MC
1984 Melody Mini / NP50D
1979 Simson Schwalbe KR51/1 (think 2 wheel trabant/ East German Honda Cub)
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Re: Kick Start Gears and Oil Pump Question

Post by mousewheels »

Second question, my oil pump seal is completely shot. The crankcase fills with oil after just a week of sitting. Should I just try to find a used pump on ebay, or is there a way to replace the seal with my current pump? I would rather not switch to premix.
Worth checking before replacing the oil seal:
The brass output barb pressed into the oil pump contains a ball check valve.
It is spring loaded to prevent a leak due to gravity pressure through clearances in the oil pump. When the scooter is running,
oil pump pressure opens the check valve each pump stroke.

Hook your oil pump back up to the oil tank, and hang it over two containers, one under the shaft, the other under the oil pump output.

--
Regarding the oil pump shaft seal, it is a rubber lip seal.
Seal dimensions are 9.5mm id, 16mm od, 4mm thick
Spree_Oil_Pump_Seal_sm.jpg
Spree_Oil_Pump_Seal_sm.jpg (59.39 KiB) Viewed 3458 times

Honda/Keihin wanted no chance of the oil seal working its way out.
The shaft seal is retained by a metal washer, then the oil pump housing is staked to retain the washer + oil seal.

Replacement is straight forwards, remove the retainer, and implement a means to retain the seal upon replacement.
The washer in the stock oil pump is visible in the photo below.
Spree_Oil_Pump_IO.jpg
Spree_Oil_Pump_IO.jpg (78.83 KiB) Viewed 3458 times
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Re: Kick Start Gears and Oil Pump Question

Post by rkizewski@yahoo.com »

Apologies one and all. No luck at all with having my kid make it. He felt it was too difficult. I do have a neighbor who says he is going into being a cnc routing contractor. Otherwise, I have found two sets of kickstarts. I have an 86 Spree all together and running and an 84 that I'm putting together. I've bought two part bikes and both had the kick start spindles and driven gears so I'm putting the 84 together this spring. I'm going to save the other spindle to make a print. I still want to do this but kept hitting dead ends until I found the extra spindle.
:nerd: 1986 Honda Spree NQ50
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