50 elite / SE50P hard start?

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nightcruiser
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50 elite / SE50P hard start?

Post by nightcruiser »

Hi everyone!

I've had an elite 50 (1987 SE50P) for a few years now, it always started great, barely had to turn over to start. Lately I have had a problem starting, it will rarely start with the starter but if I kick it and give it some throttle it will start. This is cold and hot.

I have tried seemingly everything....

3 carbs (Orig SE50P, a new aftermarket and what I believe is an Aero 50 carb I got on ebay)....
several auto bystarters
New spark plugs (NGK, Honda OEM, Honda OEM extended high speed version)
OEM air filter, several aftermarket air filters
new coil
I've adjusted the oil pump up and down (its pumping, I get more smoke when I set it high)

I can't seem to get the hard start issue cured! It does start reliably if I turn it over a few times with the starter then give it throttle and kick start. The only thing I can think of that I haven't changed is the CDI, can't seem to find a replacement for the CDI???

Compression would be the other thing I haven't checked, but since it starts with a kick and runs well after I think the compression is good?

I was thinking perhaps the auto fuel valve may be the culprit, but since it starts with a kick it seems unlikely? Not sure on that one....

Any advice on what to check from you long time experts on this bike would be appreciated!

THANKS!
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Re: 50 elite / SE50P hard start?

Post by motormike »

Since you say you haven't, CHECK that compression.
At least it will eliminate any question about compression if it is good...OR
it will reveal a problem...motor... :urban:
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Re: 50 elite / SE50P hard start?

Post by nightcruiser »

I'd have to buy a compression tester, which is no biggie really.... but since it starts well with a kick and runs well once started isn't it safe to assume it has enough compression? Wouldn't I see other issues like NO start or low speed, poor idle, stalling etc if compression was bad?

That said, I will get a compression tester this week and give it a look...

Playing further down that path of poor compression outcome, what would be the course of action? Rings, valves? Are rebuild parts even available?

Is there anything else beyond compression I should be testing?

Could it be possible that the exhaust is backed up with gunk?

Weak CDI? Is there an aftermarket CDI that works on the Elite 50?

Any advice is greatly appreciated!
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Re: 50 elite / SE50P hard start?

Post by nightcruiser »

PS
I have all the body panels completely removed for painting, so getting at things for testing right now is a breeze...
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Re: 50 elite / SE50P hard start?

Post by motormike »

There's more to check before testing compression.
I agree with your assumption that it may be good.
Since the carbretors can be SO finicky on these small bikes,
and hard-start issues are predominately fuel related...If it were me working on it....
I would go back, take off the carb that is on it now, and do a detailed and thorough flow-test
on every possible passage and jet. My method is simple enough. Insert the tube of any carb-cleaner aerosol can
into every possible passage and jet, and observe and verify flow at each one, carefully, with eye protection on that will
probably get ruined by spray-back. It is my rule that no carb is clean until they pass this testing. Then you go from there.
Subnote: 2 stroke engine do not have valves. :thumbwink:
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Re: 50 elite / SE50P hard start?

Post by nightcruiser »

Thanks a bunch for your input.

I have run a brand new aftermarket carb and was still having he hard start issues.

I did a Berryman parts dip on the oem carb, then blew through all the passages with carb cleaner as you suggested, same issues.

I also changed the battery thinking perhaps it wasn't turning over fast enough, but TBHWY it used to start so easy it doesn't make sense to not start at the speed it is turning over.... yet it does start reliably when kicked, and it is turning over faster when kicked.

Do you think it is possible that the starter is pulling too much current and dropping the voltage down to where it doesn't fire strong? When I kick there is no electric draw from the starter on the system and it always starts....

While I am turning over with the starter it kinda sounds like it is running, if I flip the kill switch it bogs down, flip the kill back on and it turns over easier again. One kick with some throttle and running.... It used to start with no throttle (hot or cold) when barely turning over. Right now I need to throttle and kick to start when cold or hot, yet it does start every time its kicked...

Isn't there a reed valve on a 2-stroke? Is that something I should check? Maybe when I kick and it turns over faster it forces weak reeds closed but when turning slower they leak? (grabbing straws LOL)

Thanks again for all of your input!

PS compression worries has me eyeing the Malossi 72CC big bore kit, though I doubt that is the issue, I'm still going to test compression. If I have week reed valves will that show up when compression testing? Is it hard to get at the reed valves to inspect them?
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Re: 50 elite / SE50P hard start?

Post by motormike »

Ah, touche' nightcruiser...yes, there is a reed VALVE.
I am so accustomed to just saying "reed" that your question of valves took me straight to the 4-stroke engine....my bad, sorry.
And, YES, by all means...pull that intake and see what those reed petals look like. May be the issue.
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Re: 50 elite / SE50P hard start?

Post by nightcruiser »

I had previously pulled the bolts on the intake but it was so firmly in place I couldn't pull it off, I thought maybe I missed a bolt but maybe it was just glued down with that HondaBond stuff? I didn't want to force it out so I didn't get to look at the reeds...

I kick started it today and warmed it up... No start with starter, one kick no throttle and its running, Starter.... Nothing....One Kick....Running.... and so on...

I put it on the battery charger in charge mode but still no start, with the charger in boost start mode it finally started with the starter... am really starting to think that the starter is just drawing too much current and causing the system voltage to drop to where it fires too weak to start...

I am going to look into the starter a bit I think....
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Re: 50 elite / SE50P hard start?

Post by nightcruiser »

Well, I put the compression tester on the engine and the compression read woefully low, seeming too low to run at 60 PSI? I bought a mid level compression test kit on Amazon with good reviews, it has the schrader valve on the hose etc, and does hold compression value well... I am gonna throw it on the lawn mower to try to get a feel for it's accuracy... Hard to believe this scooter is running if compression is really 60 PSI...

It's looking like I am moving toward the Malossi big bore cylinder kit at this point. If anyone has advice, tips, tricks etc on doing this work I would love to hear from those with experience.

I think if I pull that one big bolt and disconnect the throttle/break cables, oil/gas lines and all the electric connections in that little boot the whole engine and back end will come off the bike? Probably the way to go? With all the body panels off everything is very accessable, but messing with the piston/rings etc while on the bike seems like it would be really tough to get done right?
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Re: 50 elite / SE50P hard start?

Post by motormike »

Was the compression tested while holding the throttle wide open ?
because that's how you should do it.
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Re: 50 elite / SE50P hard start?

Post by nightcruiser »

Yep, I did compression test with throttle wide open for several rounds of cranking with the starter and then kicking. I did the compression test again today after testing the lawn mower, same result. From what I read in forums it shouldn't run with less than 90 PSI, so maybe the meter is somewhat off, maybe 90 PSI is a very loose number, or maybe with the combination of throttle and kick that starts it up barely hits the compression it needs to fire? IDK, but I am fairly sure the compression isn't anywhere near the 114-171 PSI as specified in the manual.
I am getting sick of kick starting this thing (said my knee), and it's not running up to par anymore, acceleration and top end speed are not where they should be. It's not safe to ride the thing if it doesn't move fast enough for traffic. Though it does run it's sub par and has gone from fun to frustrating and potentially dangerous.
I'm really eyeing that Malossi 72cc big bore cylinder more and more... Not that much money, and doesn't seem like that much work to install it, particularly since the body parts are already pulled off the scooter right now. The kit comes with cylinder, piston, reed valve, gaskets etc, seems like I should have solid compression for sure if I install that kit, and a little extra HP as a bonus.
I need to get back to the point where it starts with barely a spin from the starter and gets me to 35 MPH fast and can top out around 40.... Those were the fun days...
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Re: 50 elite / SE50P hard start?

Post by nightcruiser »

I went ahead with the Malossi Aero / SE50 72cc Big Bore Cylinder Kit over the weekend, here are some things I learned in the process.

First off, reminder that my issue is not starting with the starter, but does start with a kick, reliably. Runs OK but not great, but still reliable.

I did compression test and found that it had low compression , around 60PSI if this gauge is accurate, I've read 90PSI min to run, but it runs when kicked.

When I pulled the head the first thing that kicked me in the face was the (metal) head gasket was broken in three places! can clearly see that it has been leaking through these spots for a long time, but most likely became worse this season. My guess is if i had just pulled the head and put on a new gasket it would have run like a champ.....

TIP #1: If you have hard start and lackluster performance do a compression test, if it is low don't freak out! It is very easy to pull the head and replace that gasket for probably a couple bucks!

Tip#2: This scooter is very easy to work on. Just lay out a jack stand, hold the rear brake and lift the bike onto the back wheel (wheelie). Lay the bike down on the jack stand at the point of the frame where that big bolt that holds the back end of the bike is, put some stands or something solid under the front of the frame and lay the bike down on the stands. I did this by myself with no issues. Now remove the one bolt that holds the shock at the motor end and the back wheel will drop down and expose the engine to make easy access for working. Make sure to disconnect the throttle/fuel/oil/vacuum lines first or it will hang from them! At this point you can pull the head or jug with ease.

If you have studs on your jug you could definitely pull the nuts and head without putting the bike on the stands and dropping the shock. If you have head BOLTS I am not sure if there will be enough clearance to remove them once loose. At any rate, if you can pull the head without dropping the shock you could probably fix this compression issue for a couple bucks and a half hour work! Otherwise, drop the shock and you're done in an hour.

Pulling the head and jug was easy, getting the wrist pin out of the piston was a PITA. It was rusted and fused in there bad, I got lucky and grabbed one little corner, had to pull it out mm by mm breaking it out of that rust, it was mangled when I was done.

Pulling the wrist pin was kinda painful too. I am sure there is a tool for that, what I did was find a bolt a tiny but smaller than the wrist pin so it can apply pressure, then used a wood clamp to force it through, When the wrist pin started protruding out the side of the piston I found a deep well socket that fit over the wrist pin and braced the wood clamp on that to press the pin the rest of the way out.

Once out I found the cylinder was is great shape, piston not bad either, but the bottom ring was stuck hard so the bike was basically running with one ring and three substantial breaks in the head gasket!... and STILL RUNNING!

As for the Malossi big bore kit, seems solid, went in easy. I thought getting the wrist pin clip in was going be tough, but compared to getting the original out it was a piece of cake! The OEM clips and the ones that came with the Malossi kit don't have those little ears you can grab with needle nose pliers to compress, that would be too easy! IDK if you can get any clips that fit this cylinder that have those ears but I would look for them if I had to do this over again. It's a miracle I didnt loose this one and end up frustrated.

The Malossi jug seems a bit taller, the heat shield fit a little tight but did bolt down fine, it's kinda flexible. The exhaust didn't seem to line up with the mounting bolts when hanging from the exhaust manifold. I fiddled with it a bit and then decided just to bolt it down to the manifold so I can start the motor and do a couple break in cycles. Definitely will NOT ride without having the exhaust mounted properly....

The bike starts now with barely a turn from the starter, starts up like magic! Runs nice, has a little beefier sound to it. I am in the process of doing proper break in now, that is, bring up to temp at idle then let cool, repeat a couple times before you ride and start to stress it.

I also bought one of those Temp/RPM monitors, temp monitor is a ring that goes under the spark plug, easy to install. This way I can monitor the temperature and RPM to make sure I don't burn it up. Just that little bit of warning (meter goes RED) when you are maxing temp or RPM is all you need to make you back off a minute before you burn it up and end up stranded!

I haven't taken a test ride yet, will report back after I get the exhaust mounting figured out and have gone for a test ride.....
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Re: 50 elite / SE50P hard start?

Post by nightcruiser »

Following up on the end result here.

I had to bend the exhaust pipe a bit to make it line up with mounting bolts after I installed the Malossi Big Bore cylinder, not a huge deal, but just a warning this is not a "drop in fit" replacement.

It started up great first try, I let it warm fully at idle, then cool fully. Did this a second time before I took it for a ride, I've heard this was the best way to break in and let the rings set etc. I then took two short ~1 mile rides, never pulling full throttle, took it easy on the fresh cylinder and piston. Right away I can tell acceleration is WAY better, it pulls hard right out of the gate now.

I started out with a 90 jet, she's running cool but goes like a bat out of he!!. I hit ~47 MPH (Speedometer pegged) on a stretch of road I had been struggling to do 35 MPH on before.

I backed down to an 88 jet, still running great, still running cool, still hitting similar top end speeds. Acceleration is great...

I backed down to 86 jet, still runs great, starts great, acceleration great. I haven't had a chance to take a lap and test top end speed in the usual places but it is still pulling great, I assume 86 is the jet I will land on, or perhaps go back up to the 88 if I find my top end has diminished after a few test lap runs.

The scooter starts like it used now, barely turns over and it's running, one light kick and its running... So poor compression was truly the issue, assuming from the three cracks in the head gasket, and the stuck bottom piston ring wasn't helping either. I think simply replacing the head gasket would have gotten me back to where I used to be, starting easy and getting moderate acceleration and top end. Upgrading to the Malossi Big Bore was a bit more money, and a lot more work, but in the end acceleration and top end speed is way better than I could ever achieve with the OEM cylinder, I am happy I went the extra mile to upgrade the head.

Hopefully this repair log will be helpful to someone else some day down the road....
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