elite se50 and aero 50 '85 up with af05e engine

[ScooterTweaks]

heys guys

as some of you may have read i own a 87 elite se50 with stock parts heavily ported with exhaust etc. etc. and now have two aero 50's (85/86) all with the AF05E engine. i am becoming more and more familiar with this engine and have found some new directions for parts!

after finishing the last bike tonight, it was still early enough to work on my on bikes so i turned my attention to my extra af05e engine. this motor will eventually get a good porting and new crank but for now i am playing with gearing and trans parts. i started to dig in my parts bins and other motors and here is what i found:

chinese, gy6 50cc engines, aka 139qmb, rear pulley, clutch, and bell all fit smoothly onto the rear input shaft. also, the variator slides right on but using the stock variator drive boss. the drive plate splines are much bigger on the 4 stroke gy6 so no go on that one. but, this opens many new doors for tuning! especially since parts can be obtained for very little $$$! i went ahead and ordered a full performance trans kit tonight from one of my parts suppliers. the brand of parts is HOCA, which is a taiwan based company, but prob made in china any way... once these parts come in i will bolt them on my stock 86 aero for results then on my modded 87 elite for those results. curious what the outcome will be...

i want to get with burnt_toast on this forum and look at final drive gearing via the 94+ elite and dio for possible upgrades. i think the next generation build will have more than enough hp and rpm to use taller gears.


if any of you know some interchangeable parts already please do tell. maybe we can start listing parts options from other bikes:

1987 Elite SE50, 1985+ Aero 50 parts swap options:

chinese gy6 50cc parts
driven pulley/clutch
clutch bell
variator and ramp (stock drive boss)
669 belt

honda met/ruckus parts
driven pulley/clutch
clutch bell
variator and ramp (stock drive boss)
stock met belt

[Wheelman-111]

Greetings:

This is good news for all the SE/05 owners looking to go slightly faster.

Malossi once made Primary Gears for this block, 67-6458 if memory serves. At 16:32, I found the resultant Final Drive Ratio was 7.83:1, pretty tall even for a maximally-modded, 65cc carbed and piped 05. Slow take-offs, but speeds did approach 60.

To improve the take-off acceleratioin, I had considered the ZX rear pulley which probably could be made to fit by carving out the bolt bosses in the belt cavity just like many have done on the AF16 block. However an 18mm wide belt is needed to run the ZX pulley. (and probably the GY-6 one as well...) That's not a big problem at the clutch shaft, but poses a problem at the crank: The splines are very narrow on the 05 crank compared to the 16's. Shimming out the boss that extra 2.5mm puts the fixed sheave of the Drive Face outside the grip of the splines, or just on the very edge.

I mention this because your post identifies the 669 belt as one that can be used on the AF05. It's 18mm wide, so I'm not so sure it can.

[ScooterTweaks]

I will need to post some pics of the area in question:

I am thinking of milling a few mm off the area of the crank that the variator butts up too to allow it to open up a bit. If things dont work so perfectly I can always use mm thick washer/shims to space back to original dimensions.

Now for the gy6 belt, I put it on with the gy6 rear pulley setup and the gy6 variator with the stock drive pulley face and it had great length and slipped down to the drive boss almost all the way... So like I said, shaving a bit off might make things work perfectly. The great thing here is that I have my 87 elite motor, 85/86 aero motor, a spare 87 motor, and another 87 motor on the way making the grand total: duh duh duh duhhhhh!!! 5 motors to play with and experiment! I also have two extra cranks but those are NOS and i dont really want to jack those up. Two of the motors have some miles on the cranks so I will use those to machine down and experiment. Wish me luck on this one.

My running and worked over elite will receive the gy6 trans first, hopefully by the end of the week. But, like I said some pics are going to help but might not get to it this week.

Please keep the comments coming!

[turtle13]

i have been thinking about the splines issue recently as well with the SE50 engine. has anybody seen if the af16 crank will fit the SE50 casework? if it fits it may require a different conrod to make up the difference in stroke, but could open up some doors for those that run the SE50.
unless you shave back internal casework behind the belt and respective bosses, i have yet to think of another way to run the zx trans on an SE50.

[Trafficjamz]

i have been thinking about the splines issue recently as well with the SE50 engine. has anybody seen if the af16 crank will fit the SE50 casework? if it fits it may require a different conrod to make up the difference in stroke, but could open up some doors for those that run the SE50.

It does not fit.

[turtle13]

i have been thinking about the splines issue recently as well with the SE50 engine. has anybody seen if the af16 crank will fit the SE50 casework? if it fits it may require a different conrod to make up the difference in stroke, but could open up some doors for those that run the SE50.

It does not fit.

Meh, it was worth a shot...
im just glad that there are people like Tjams out there that are willing to tinker, and have an apparent plethora of parts to do so with.

[turtle13]

1987 Elite SE50, 1985+ Aero 50 parts swap options:

chinese gy6 50cc parts
driven pulley/clutch
clutch bell
variator and ramp (stock drive boss)
669 belt

honda met/ruckus parts
driven pulley/clutch
clutch bell
variator and ramp (stock drive boss)
stock met belt

this is pretty nice to know however, because there are a ton of gy6 clutch's and clutch bells available, and alot of them are dirt cheap and pretty good looking.

[ScooterTweaks]

with the stock variator or gy6 variator there is a good little gap between the variator and engine case, however, the areas that are close are cast webbing that can be shaved down slightly to accommodate the new object in the way or a larger variator.

as far as cranks go, i see a lot of people saying that the elite/dio cranks wont fit... i am hoping to meet with a friend who has tuned a few elites and dios to see his cranks in my case to understand the differences and why they might not work. i am not afraid of a little machine work if needed. i want to look at as much as possible for myself and fully understand my engine and its parameters. if a stronger and larger crank can fill my case and create higher crank case pressures then i am all in! with only the polini 65cc option as a bolt on i want all the help i can get.

one of my derbi scooters has a huge stuffer crank with stock stroke wedged into an engine using the stock 50 piston and cylinder with worked porting to match one of my high level metrakit 72cc kit with stock crank on another bike. both bikes have the same 21mm carb, large intake manifold and reed cage, same sp pipe, and same trans setup minus rollers. 50cc is running 4.5 gram and 72cc running 4 gram, and they are almost perfectly identical!!! the 50 has way more snap and response when rolling on/off out of a corner. the 72 has just a slight better take off but only about 1/3 a bike length, almost not worth mentioning really, then they are petty much the same as you blast up past 45 etc. etc...

i might be chasing my tail here but if there is a way i want to at least say i tried!

[turtle13]

with only the polini 65cc option as a bolt on i want all the help i can get.

dont forget there is always the CMR kit from VTcycles, and the malossi kit as well.

[ScooterTweaks]

yeah i have found that there are other kits but i cant find a malossi kit and i dont know why but i feel that the polini kit will much more developed porting and timing. not to mention i have a guy that can get them for me at a cut throat rate.

i played with the gy6 trans some more tonight on my 87 elite and here are my findings so far:

stock clutch and pulley system with gy6 belt and gy6 variator running 16x13 rollers had horrible take off and ok power.
1000 rpm clutch springs, 1000 rpm contrast spring with gy6 belt and variator running 16x13 rollers had better take off and better power.
same clutch settings but stock elite belt with 16x13 rollers had ok take off and ok power
same settings but with 15x12 rollers allowing the belt to slide all the way down to the drive boss equals awesome take off and good power.
next step is to run 2000 rpm clutch springs and 1500 contrast spring with varying roller weights to find the right combo.

current setup is very strong with 15x12 4g rollers, gy6 variator, gy6 clutch with 1000 rpm clutch springs and 1000 rpm contrast spring, stock belt.

i also notice that the gy6 variator has a different roller ramp shape. not sure just how this plays a role in performance but can tell you that it looks like the dr pulley sliders would fit much much much better in the gys setup. once i get the roller weights figured out i will purchase some dr pulley sliders in the correct grams for the best results.

i will be taking the camera to work tomorrow and posting some pics on sat. when i am overcoming a hangover!!!

[ScooterTweaks]

update:


got my other "new" AF05E engine today. it was an ebay find for about $40 shipped. has good compression at cold and no carb and the cylinder looks good. did not take the top end off yet but did pop the head off to pear inside. it came with everything but the carb, exhaust, and trans cover.



here is the other ebay motor


the inside of this motor is not so good... someone started to drill a hole in the top of the piston

the cylinder is a little scratched. also, the rings and piston skirts are in rough shape. rehone and replace!!!

here are my two donor motors ready to be worked over.

here are some pipes i have found on ebay for super cheap over time: a couple of ktm 50 pro's, a LEM 50 pro, and a polini 4.2 pipe. (thought i was getting the 6.2, # stands for HP) i want to use that pipe for the spree.





i have this work bench cleaned off, more or less, and ready for all my honda engine work. i have a lot of engine parts on the way. looking forward to getting my polini 65cc kit, larger front variator, and various other trans parts. as i start to work on these two engines i will be documenting my work on a custom intake manifold with large reed cage and 17.5mm dellorto. this to me is really going to open up the engines power potential. not just a larger carb but a proper matched intake runner and manifold. i notice on the dio motor, when you add the large intake manifold and carb, that the reed cage is set very high and might lower the crank case pressure. not sure that the additional area really lowers the pressure, not sure how i would measure this... but i know i want to design mine so the area from reed valve to inlet is about the same as stock so i dont loose crank case pressure. without the ability to drop in a stuffer crank you cant stand to loose anything right?

a few shots of various roller weights, rear pulley springs, clutches, bells, and different size belts i will be working with.




found some differences between the two motors but the batteries on the camera went out before i could take some pics. tomorrow. its quite interesting and makes me want to see the differences in these, my 87 elite, and 85 & 86 aero.

ScooterSteve

[eliteguy50]

... found some differences between the two motors ...

If you had received the stock intakes, you would have found even more differences. I look forward to seeing your custom intake designs.

[ScooterTweaks]

(EDITED)

the second motor with the whole in the piston, came with the carb, intake manifold, and reeds. it is shaped different and longer than my elite system. i also noticed that the stator wiring and plug was a little different. same color code and ouputs but they have different ends, lengths, and one of them has a very large ground wire vs the tiny loop ground.

i think i am going to document each motors year, model of bike, and engine number along with pics of differences from one to another. i should be able to add info as i find more. hoping unlock some secrets! maybe build the perfect AF05E!?!?!?!

maybe...

ScooterSteve

[eliteguy50]

You will need to note the exact model too, there were multiple port designs (among other differences) used in 1987 across the 50cc class.

[Jimmid709]

This post was very interesting. What happened to it? Has it moved somewhere or did it just die?