Flash III PhaseII: Tuning MadDog's Worst (Again!) Setup
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- Wheelman-111
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- Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 5:09 pm
- Location: Deepinnaharta, Texas
Flash III PhaseII: Tuning MadDog's Worst (Again!) Setup
Greetings:
A happy side-effect of the Pirelli SL26 in the 90/90 size up front is that it almost perfectly compensates for Honda-sans hopelessly optimistic speedometer. Yup, 35 indicated was 34.5 on the GPS. Under 1.5% error, still on the safe optimistic side.
Tonight I installed the Polini 248-006 belt for Italjet and Derbi Vamos. 668x16.25. I incorrectly shimmed the front pulley boss 1.25mm and immediately hit a snag. When I started it the noise was immediately apparent: The kickstarter castles were just barely caressing each other. A temporary fix with a couple of washers between case and cover let me go out and test. I'll get and glue on a second gasket. Edit: The shim should go between the ramp plate and the boss, not behind the ramp plate.
Oddly, despite riding the very outer rim of the driven pulley, take-offs are not much different. Engine speed through the midrange also about the same. Seems to drop RPM a bit sooner as I approach top speed and may need lighter rollers to get over the top. However peak speed of 53.0 on the GPS was without trying very hard - better than the first-run 52.6 in Build Chronicles. Still running 340 at WOT, up to 375 when I let off.
A happy side-effect of the Pirelli SL26 in the 90/90 size up front is that it almost perfectly compensates for Honda-sans hopelessly optimistic speedometer. Yup, 35 indicated was 34.5 on the GPS. Under 1.5% error, still on the safe optimistic side.
Tonight I installed the Polini 248-006 belt for Italjet and Derbi Vamos. 668x16.25. I incorrectly shimmed the front pulley boss 1.25mm and immediately hit a snag. When I started it the noise was immediately apparent: The kickstarter castles were just barely caressing each other. A temporary fix with a couple of washers between case and cover let me go out and test. I'll get and glue on a second gasket. Edit: The shim should go between the ramp plate and the boss, not behind the ramp plate.
Oddly, despite riding the very outer rim of the driven pulley, take-offs are not much different. Engine speed through the midrange also about the same. Seems to drop RPM a bit sooner as I approach top speed and may need lighter rollers to get over the top. However peak speed of 53.0 on the GPS was without trying very hard - better than the first-run 52.6 in Build Chronicles. Still running 340 at WOT, up to 375 when I let off.
Wheelman-111
Most of my money is spent on scooterparts. The rest is just wasted.
"ISO": '03 Vespa ET4 Malossi187 74MPH
Flash 9: 2001 Elite SR Contesta 72 ZX Tran, 9:1 Gears, Stock Airbox/Carb/Pipe 58.8 MPH
Punkin: 2010 Vespa/Malossi S78, 61MPH
Most of my money is spent on scooterparts. The rest is just wasted.
"ISO": '03 Vespa ET4 Malossi187 74MPH
Flash 9: 2001 Elite SR Contesta 72 ZX Tran, 9:1 Gears, Stock Airbox/Carb/Pipe 58.8 MPH
Punkin: 2010 Vespa/Malossi S78, 61MPH
Re: Flash PhaseII: Tuning Itty-Bitty Nitty-Gritty Ain't Pretty
I know a lot of people that have washers on the case to clear the ZX drive boss (which everyone here seems to have, even without the rest of the pieces). The local shop sells a super thick rubber washer, I think it may be for the SYM dd50? Either way it is much thicker than the paper gasket (or 5 of them ) that I order from Honda.
I run a full ZX trans, including the kicker case. It has the extra space needed to clear the drive face.
I run a full ZX trans, including the kicker case. It has the extra space needed to clear the drive face.
In 2040 they say we're going away
We could never let them control
Hawaiian man, take back your hawaiian land
We could never let them control
Hawaiian man, take back your hawaiian land
Re: Flash PhaseII: Tuning Itty-Bitty Nitty-Gritty Ain't Pretty
so how much taller is the new tire u installed does it handle better on the road what was the reason u went with this tire
2001 honda elite s 50cc
1995 honda elite s 72cc
1995 honda elite s 72cc
Re: Flash PhaseII: Tuning Itty-Bitty Nitty-Gritty Ain't Pretty
what i was trying to ask is how much taller the tire is from stock ?
and the reason for going to the new tire u have now on your elite.
sorry for the jumbo all in one sentence earlier
and the reason for going to the new tire u have now on your elite.
sorry for the jumbo all in one sentence earlier
2001 honda elite s 50cc
1995 honda elite s 72cc
1995 honda elite s 72cc
- Wheelman-111
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- Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 5:09 pm
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Tire Size
Greetings:
Sl26 reasons:
0.36" taller.
Better traction/braking/cornering from considerably wider, flatter profile.
Racy tread pattern.
I had one, waited for taller stand.
Sl26 reasons:
0.36" taller.
Better traction/braking/cornering from considerably wider, flatter profile.
Racy tread pattern.
I had one, waited for taller stand.
Wheelman-111
Most of my money is spent on scooterparts. The rest is just wasted.
"ISO": '03 Vespa ET4 Malossi187 74MPH
Flash 9: 2001 Elite SR Contesta 72 ZX Tran, 9:1 Gears, Stock Airbox/Carb/Pipe 58.8 MPH
Punkin: 2010 Vespa/Malossi S78, 61MPH
Most of my money is spent on scooterparts. The rest is just wasted.
"ISO": '03 Vespa ET4 Malossi187 74MPH
Flash 9: 2001 Elite SR Contesta 72 ZX Tran, 9:1 Gears, Stock Airbox/Carb/Pipe 58.8 MPH
Punkin: 2010 Vespa/Malossi S78, 61MPH
Re: Flash PhaseII: Tuning Itty-Bitty Nitty-Gritty Ain't Pretty
so u running the same tire on the back of your scooter all so
2001 honda elite s 50cc
1995 honda elite s 72cc
1995 honda elite s 72cc
- Wheelman-111
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- Posts: 11325
- Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 5:09 pm
- Location: Deepinnaharta, Texas
FlasShoes Match, Natch
Greetings:
Yes, Pirelli SL26es Fore and Aft. Ready for Track Day.
Yes, Pirelli SL26es Fore and Aft. Ready for Track Day.
Wheelman-111
Most of my money is spent on scooterparts. The rest is just wasted.
"ISO": '03 Vespa ET4 Malossi187 74MPH
Flash 9: 2001 Elite SR Contesta 72 ZX Tran, 9:1 Gears, Stock Airbox/Carb/Pipe 58.8 MPH
Punkin: 2010 Vespa/Malossi S78, 61MPH
Most of my money is spent on scooterparts. The rest is just wasted.
"ISO": '03 Vespa ET4 Malossi187 74MPH
Flash 9: 2001 Elite SR Contesta 72 ZX Tran, 9:1 Gears, Stock Airbox/Carb/Pipe 58.8 MPH
Punkin: 2010 Vespa/Malossi S78, 61MPH
- Wheelman-111
- Moderator
- Posts: 11325
- Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 5:09 pm
- Location: Deepinnaharta, Texas
Tuning The Worst Setup MadDog Has Ever Seen
Greetings:
I started nibbling at optimizing the tranny as break-in reaches completion. 7-gram rollers made way for 6.8, now intending to install 6.5s the next time I dismantle. RPMs went from 65-ish to around 7K or so for brisk cruising. Maybe 7200 at WOT, but the engine definitely makes more power up a bit higher, suggested by top speed runs where it unwinds to 8-ish.
I had been playing with a 1.5cm longer Polini Kevlar belt that's also 16.25mm wide. (earlier statements were incorrect. In order to retain brisk take-offs, a shim of at least .75mm was necessary.
My only washer candidate put the drive face outer pulley into contact with the kickstarter castle, so I shimmed out the cover awaiting a stack of cover gaskets I plan to glue on. Now I've located thinner boss shims which should work better.
Sutherland's Hardware Store had an extensive washer collection: As thin as 0.8mm spring-steel jobs (that also act as a lockwasher...) to 2mm. All with an ID of 12mm, and a narrow band that shouldn't protrude beyond the boss diameter.
Note that I started off by putting the shim behindthe ramp plate. Further reflection led me to surmise that this is not optimal as it moves the entire variator assembly out of alignment. Better to shim inside the ramp plate, so that the boss is effectively longer (to increase space for the wider belt...) without the misalignment issue. Experimentation begins tonight.
I started nibbling at optimizing the tranny as break-in reaches completion. 7-gram rollers made way for 6.8, now intending to install 6.5s the next time I dismantle. RPMs went from 65-ish to around 7K or so for brisk cruising. Maybe 7200 at WOT, but the engine definitely makes more power up a bit higher, suggested by top speed runs where it unwinds to 8-ish.
I had been playing with a 1.5cm longer Polini Kevlar belt that's also 16.25mm wide. (earlier statements were incorrect. In order to retain brisk take-offs, a shim of at least .75mm was necessary.
My only washer candidate put the drive face outer pulley into contact with the kickstarter castle, so I shimmed out the cover awaiting a stack of cover gaskets I plan to glue on. Now I've located thinner boss shims which should work better.
Sutherland's Hardware Store had an extensive washer collection: As thin as 0.8mm spring-steel jobs (that also act as a lockwasher...) to 2mm. All with an ID of 12mm, and a narrow band that shouldn't protrude beyond the boss diameter.
Note that I started off by putting the shim behindthe ramp plate. Further reflection led me to surmise that this is not optimal as it moves the entire variator assembly out of alignment. Better to shim inside the ramp plate, so that the boss is effectively longer (to increase space for the wider belt...) without the misalignment issue. Experimentation begins tonight.
Wheelman-111
Most of my money is spent on scooterparts. The rest is just wasted.
"ISO": '03 Vespa ET4 Malossi187 74MPH
Flash 9: 2001 Elite SR Contesta 72 ZX Tran, 9:1 Gears, Stock Airbox/Carb/Pipe 58.8 MPH
Punkin: 2010 Vespa/Malossi S78, 61MPH
Most of my money is spent on scooterparts. The rest is just wasted.
"ISO": '03 Vespa ET4 Malossi187 74MPH
Flash 9: 2001 Elite SR Contesta 72 ZX Tran, 9:1 Gears, Stock Airbox/Carb/Pipe 58.8 MPH
Punkin: 2010 Vespa/Malossi S78, 61MPH
- bradthreee
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Re: Flash PhaseII: Tuning The Worst Setup MadDog Has Ever Seen
When you figure out which belt works best with FlashIII, sell one to me as FlashII is in dire need
- Wheelman-111
- Moderator
- Posts: 11325
- Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 5:09 pm
- Location: Deepinnaharta, Texas
Beltz
Greetings:
Shimmed 1.2mm between the boss and ramp plate to accommodate the 16.25 Polini 248.006, which is ~1.5cm. longer than stock. This allowed enough room between the front sheaves to let the belt ride all the way down to center. The increased length brought it to a little above the rim out back.
Instant ZX trans! Also swapped to 6.5g rollers from 7s. Cruise RPM rose from 6500 to 7200 with 7900 and climbing at WOT. Once again there is the threat of wheelies as I also adjusted the Polini clutch up to engage at ~4K. There isn't enough clutch grab to take full advantage of the Nik's power at launch.
Top speed remains to be determined, but it put the speedo needle flat in 1/8 mile for an easy 55. Temps oddly enough fell off a little to 300-325 during this abuse.
The stock carb and intake may be the choke point now.
Shimmed 1.2mm between the boss and ramp plate to accommodate the 16.25 Polini 248.006, which is ~1.5cm. longer than stock. This allowed enough room between the front sheaves to let the belt ride all the way down to center. The increased length brought it to a little above the rim out back.
Instant ZX trans! Also swapped to 6.5g rollers from 7s. Cruise RPM rose from 6500 to 7200 with 7900 and climbing at WOT. Once again there is the threat of wheelies as I also adjusted the Polini clutch up to engage at ~4K. There isn't enough clutch grab to take full advantage of the Nik's power at launch.
Top speed remains to be determined, but it put the speedo needle flat in 1/8 mile for an easy 55. Temps oddly enough fell off a little to 300-325 during this abuse.
The stock carb and intake may be the choke point now.
Wheelman-111
Most of my money is spent on scooterparts. The rest is just wasted.
"ISO": '03 Vespa ET4 Malossi187 74MPH
Flash 9: 2001 Elite SR Contesta 72 ZX Tran, 9:1 Gears, Stock Airbox/Carb/Pipe 58.8 MPH
Punkin: 2010 Vespa/Malossi S78, 61MPH
Most of my money is spent on scooterparts. The rest is just wasted.
"ISO": '03 Vespa ET4 Malossi187 74MPH
Flash 9: 2001 Elite SR Contesta 72 ZX Tran, 9:1 Gears, Stock Airbox/Carb/Pipe 58.8 MPH
Punkin: 2010 Vespa/Malossi S78, 61MPH
Re: Flash PhaseII: Tuning The Worst Setup MadDog Has Ever Seen
How many miles are on your bore? Temps will lower/even out and you get more power once the motor is broken in. That's probably why your bike was a bit disappointing at first (compared to flash II) and it keeps getting faster on every ride.
In 2040 they say we're going away
We could never let them control
Hawaiian man, take back your hawaiian land
We could never let them control
Hawaiian man, take back your hawaiian land
- Wheelman-111
- Moderator
- Posts: 11325
- Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 5:09 pm
- Location: Deepinnaharta, Texas
Broken-In Bore
Greetings:
Approaching ~200 miles, or perhaps 3 tankfuls now. Power seems to be getting better. Hard to tell without GPS and recent front tire swap - the speedo now reads less optimistically, and very near true but the scale hard to decipher.
21-24mm carb was my thinking as well. I can go manual choke for sure, but I'd like to keep the pump + 50/1 premix. The Mikuni would do that for sure. I'll explore my options with the CT mani. I emailed Benji at Treatland to ax him about spigot spacers and cables. I've always been fond of Mikunis, and this one has an oil port right at the venturi.
Approaching ~200 miles, or perhaps 3 tankfuls now. Power seems to be getting better. Hard to tell without GPS and recent front tire swap - the speedo now reads less optimistically, and very near true but the scale hard to decipher.
21-24mm carb was my thinking as well. I can go manual choke for sure, but I'd like to keep the pump + 50/1 premix. The Mikuni would do that for sure. I'll explore my options with the CT mani. I emailed Benji at Treatland to ax him about spigot spacers and cables. I've always been fond of Mikunis, and this one has an oil port right at the venturi.
Wheelman-111
Most of my money is spent on scooterparts. The rest is just wasted.
"ISO": '03 Vespa ET4 Malossi187 74MPH
Flash 9: 2001 Elite SR Contesta 72 ZX Tran, 9:1 Gears, Stock Airbox/Carb/Pipe 58.8 MPH
Punkin: 2010 Vespa/Malossi S78, 61MPH
Most of my money is spent on scooterparts. The rest is just wasted.
"ISO": '03 Vespa ET4 Malossi187 74MPH
Flash 9: 2001 Elite SR Contesta 72 ZX Tran, 9:1 Gears, Stock Airbox/Carb/Pipe 58.8 MPH
Punkin: 2010 Vespa/Malossi S78, 61MPH
- Wheelman-111
- Moderator
- Posts: 11325
- Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 5:09 pm
- Location: Deepinnaharta, Texas
Long Polini 248.006 Belt Trial
Greetings:
This high-riding Polini Kevlar 248.006 belt with a 1.2mm boss shim:
restored take-off to quicker-than-stock levels despite 9:1 gears. The bad news is a top speed of 52.4 at a high-ish 9600 RPM. The good news is that the engine reaches that speed with a stock carb and intake. WOW!
I think the belt is too long/maybe wide? to dig all the way down the driven face. It would appear that I need a little more variator diameter with this pulley setup. I forgot to magic-mark the pulley faces to assess the belt's full excursion, but that's what I believe is happening. Stock belt went over 58 with less revs.
Anybody got a decent Ruck vario? Complete ZX Trans? Chrome vented clutch bell?? That overnight rust is bugging me! Stop me before I paint again...
Much as I hate to admit that MadDog could be right, maybe I just need to swap the 9:1 for 8.4s. Mikuni TM24 ordered, installation to come.
This high-riding Polini Kevlar 248.006 belt with a 1.2mm boss shim:
restored take-off to quicker-than-stock levels despite 9:1 gears. The bad news is a top speed of 52.4 at a high-ish 9600 RPM. The good news is that the engine reaches that speed with a stock carb and intake. WOW!
I think the belt is too long/maybe wide? to dig all the way down the driven face. It would appear that I need a little more variator diameter with this pulley setup. I forgot to magic-mark the pulley faces to assess the belt's full excursion, but that's what I believe is happening. Stock belt went over 58 with less revs.
Anybody got a decent Ruck vario? Complete ZX Trans? Chrome vented clutch bell?? That overnight rust is bugging me! Stop me before I paint again...
Much as I hate to admit that MadDog could be right, maybe I just need to swap the 9:1 for 8.4s. Mikuni TM24 ordered, installation to come.
Wheelman-111
Most of my money is spent on scooterparts. The rest is just wasted.
"ISO": '03 Vespa ET4 Malossi187 74MPH
Flash 9: 2001 Elite SR Contesta 72 ZX Tran, 9:1 Gears, Stock Airbox/Carb/Pipe 58.8 MPH
Punkin: 2010 Vespa/Malossi S78, 61MPH
Most of my money is spent on scooterparts. The rest is just wasted.
"ISO": '03 Vespa ET4 Malossi187 74MPH
Flash 9: 2001 Elite SR Contesta 72 ZX Tran, 9:1 Gears, Stock Airbox/Carb/Pipe 58.8 MPH
Punkin: 2010 Vespa/Malossi S78, 61MPH
Re: Flash PhaseII: Tuning The Worst Setup MadDog Has Ever Seen
Wheelieboy, You do know that in the high performance world of carburetion that,
"A lot of little holes are better than one big one."
"A lot of little holes are better than one big one."
Bear 45/70
'83 Aero 80 X 3
'84 Aero 80 X 3
'85 Aero 80
'84 Aero 125 X 2
'84 Aero 125
'84 Aero 125 X 2
'85 Aero 50
'85 Spree
'83 Aero 80 X 3
'84 Aero 80 X 3
'85 Aero 80
'84 Aero 125 X 2
'84 Aero 125
'84 Aero 125 X 2
'85 Aero 50
'85 Spree
- Wheelman-111
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- Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 5:09 pm
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Re: Flash PhaseII: Tuning The Worst Setup MadDog Has Ever Seen
Greetings:
The Bear axt:
The Bear axt:
Yes, in fact that was my Dating Motto during much of my young adulthood. Not sure how it applies to the Variator issue at hand, but perhaps you mean the Mikuni?Wheelieboy, You do know that in the high performance world of carburetion that,
"A lot of little holes are better than one big one."?
Last edited by Wheelman-111 on Tue Sep 15, 2009 10:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Edited Belt Testing Post.
Reason: Edited Belt Testing Post.
Wheelman-111
Most of my money is spent on scooterparts. The rest is just wasted.
"ISO": '03 Vespa ET4 Malossi187 74MPH
Flash 9: 2001 Elite SR Contesta 72 ZX Tran, 9:1 Gears, Stock Airbox/Carb/Pipe 58.8 MPH
Punkin: 2010 Vespa/Malossi S78, 61MPH
Most of my money is spent on scooterparts. The rest is just wasted.
"ISO": '03 Vespa ET4 Malossi187 74MPH
Flash 9: 2001 Elite SR Contesta 72 ZX Tran, 9:1 Gears, Stock Airbox/Carb/Pipe 58.8 MPH
Punkin: 2010 Vespa/Malossi S78, 61MPH