2000 Honda Elite SA50P - Gear Swap

[Wheelman-111]

Greetings:

As a test, I recommend you weigh your current rollers and then install some that subtract 3-5 grams total weight from whatever you were running. 7400 is pretty low RPM for a healthy stock engine. I'd expect 80-8500 at least. The hill just allowed the RPM to get further into the meaty part of the torque curve, where normally (without that assist) your engine's "stuck" below its max power.

If you find better performance with X - 3 grams, try it with X -6 and re-test until it no longer improves.

[shiba]

@ALOW1 ...no problem for bumping...i still have similar problems... so the bumping is much appreciated!

i did decarbonize the exhaust...sometime last year, dont remember when exactly, but it involved about half a gallon of waste gas being poured into the pipe and on a pile of wood, and being lit on fire to get nice and hot...

and i will try subtracting different weights....but would you recommend i do this with the stock variator, or should i put back in my (i think) keli one? (NOTE: i was having the problem w/ the keli when i had it in last year, but i switched back to stock to see if that made any difference...


EDIT: ooh!! also, i was going to ask if it would be a good idea to get 1.5k center spring for clutch, and 2k grabbers for the clutch also...it seems many people have done these with good results...and when i was thinking about what that would do (last year, again) it seemed that they may help...just wondering tho...

[Wheelman-111]

Greetings:

My experience has been that the Keli, Prodigy and other aftermarket variators will provide higher top speeds. Unlike the stocker, most of the aftermarket jobs have ramp guide ridges that extend a few mm proud of the casting. This in turn allows the movable face to travel a bit farther towards the fixed sheave, squeezing the belt up higher on the plates. The larger diameter arc that the belt has to turn increases the "upgear" effect which is part of the variator's purpose. On an early, unmodified Flash III (33 miles on the odometer) I couldn't quite see 40MPH, whereas an otherwise all-stock engine touched 43MPH with the Poliini variator alone added.

Swapping to a stiffer spring has a similar but not identical effect as changing out to lighter rollers. Both tend to raise the CVT's average RPM. Within that same RPM range, the stronger spring will make it more "shifty", while lighter rollers will hold a more constant RPM that's slower to respond to off-throttle moments.

However changing the spring is more challenging mechanically and takes a lot longer too. You need to figure a way to hold the assembly from spinning and to attack that large, thin nut. If you get down to ridiculously light - like 3 or 4-gram rolllers, then you may need a stiffer Contra. Until then, it's easier just to keep reducing roller weight. I predict you'll end up with around 35 grams on the stock spring, well within the range of weights available. What you definitely should not do is swap both rollers and the spring in a single disassembly, since one affects the other.

So may I suggest you pull out the Keli and install those down those 3-5 grams first? Then watch that tach and your butt-dyno for improved response and performance. If everything else is stock and healthy, you should handily exceed 40MPH. Close to 50 if you install some 9:1s.

[shiba]

alright, so heres a slight update..

last night when i got home, i put in the OKO (it isnt keli..) variator/ramp plate w/ the same weights i had in there before (9g, stock)...took it out for a spin, and it seemed to peak at about 7100RPM...

went back, swapped in 8g rollers, seemed to peak at around 7400RPM..

sadly my friend came over w/ BWW right when i pulled in, so i was unable to continue to go lower, but next chance i get (its supposed to pour like crazy from 2PM-??, so probably not tonight)..i'm going to continue to go lower and lower....im looking for about 8000RPM or so, or did i misunderstand you wheelman?

thanks again!

[Wheelman-111]

Greetings:

Yes, 8000 would be a typical RPM for the variator balance on a mild mod, but that's just a guess. It depends on more factors than I have, especially the exhaust. If your engine makes its best power at 7400, then you're already there. However most modded scooters like to gin up a little faster than that, and thus you might go quicker if the Vario lets the engine up into its powerband. The important thing to remember is not to make the roller weight jumps too large, or risk "overshooting" the ideal RPM. 3-5 grams at a time. Thus spake Bakaracer, and he's right.

[shiba]

alright, i spent the last few hours playing around with my scooter...lowering the roller weights slowly...

heres what i did... i think i started w/ 7g rollers...then moved to 3x7g +3x6g...then 6x6g...then 3x6g+3x5g...and ended there..

6x6g got me to achieve about 8000rpm...
3x6g+3x5g got me to about 8300rpm...

the one thing i did notice however, is the speed was slowly dropping every time i lowered the weights..
because i dont have an aftermarket speedo, i can only say where the neddle was pointing.. 6x6g was pointing in the '0' in 60km/h; and 3x6g+3x5g was slightly past the 35mph dash...and i know that starting out, i was going faster, pointing at the 'k' in km/h

not sure exactly what to check/do from here, but i'm sure that if i went to 6x5g, the rpm would go past 8400rpm, and the speed would drop.... :/

any suggestions?

[Wheelman-111]

Greetings:

It then sounds like the AF16 doesn't like to rev as much as I'd imagined. An exhaust would likely increase the RPM at which the engine makes its greatest power, and thus permit higher speeds with the lighter rollers.

[shiba]

could it be because my scooter has higher mileage (about 8500mil)? what exhaust would you all recommend for a stock bore?

so would getting a contra spring and clutch shoe springs be pointless then?

thanks!!

[Wheelman-111]

Greetings:

A stiffer center spring likely would exacerbate the high-revving issue. Your rollers are already in the ballpark for the spring you have.

JiangWayne has a 28mm pipe - labeled "V8" but it's a 2 or 3-stage header and a round canister. It's reported to be fine for stock up to 72cc. Definitely will support more RPM than the stock pipe, and it was fairly cheap last time I looked. Shipping takes 10-12 days from Vancouver BC, and the teal colored exhaust gasket is made from pressed eggshells, but it could work for a healthy stock bore. Check compression at 8K miles to ensure it is indeed producing near-spec power.

For Stock, Mainly
This one spins up to 9-9.5K
I owned that second one, and it's pretty good even for 78cc. Someone here has used it on a 50 with satisfactory outcome.

[shiba]

ok, glad i didnt order that exhaust yet.

i just got home from harbor freight; bought a compression checker (because my friend who would always lend me his, left the state for the summer)....checked it...and WOW! i dont remember what it IS supposed to be at, but i know its not there....it was barely hitting 80...(i remember last time i checked, it was around 110-120ish)

i also took some pictures of the spark plug, just in case you were going to ask; they can be found here: {EDIT: Removed URL, photos no longer available}

please advise on what to check/fix next.... :/

[Wheelman-111]

Greetings:

The good news is that your mixture looks pretty close to perfect, judging by that nice plug color.

The bad news is that you need a new top-end. Stock Honda is always a safe bet unless you're Jonesin' for more power. My recommendation for a very reliable kit with a nice increase over Stock power at a fair price is the Nikasil 49mm from DayWOT. (See Flash III) It's mild enough to consider running with stock intake and exhaust accoutrements.

[shiba]

I am in no way trying to doubt what you say wheelman, as you are FAR more experienced then i; but, is there anything that may be causing such low compression that i could check/fix?

reason i ask, is several reasons.
1) i just started riding my scooter these past 2 weeks...after not utilizing it for the first part of summer.. and i know that a new top end will most likely end up taking me a lot longer to finish then necessary, giving me little to no time to brake in the new top end, or even ride it...
2) i have a good feeling if i do do a big bore, i'm going to end up throwing ALOT more money at it on other parts to get it going even faster (faster is not the bad thing, its the money, that i should be saving to pay off college, and other hobbies...haha)

also, i'm the kind of person, that if i'm going to do an upgrade like that, i'm going to want to pay the $$$ for the better...IE, polini...and then that would make me feel that i were wasting money if i DIDNT upgrade more....haha

to me the money difference between the Nikasil 49mm (which i cant find on daywot's page under sa50 parts), and a polini (which i can find) is not that big of a deal to me, considering i know polini is a very well known/respected name...and ive never heard of nikasil as being amazing or anything (tho, besides this forum, i dont really talk to alot of people, if any, about scooter stuff...so...ya

btw, the kits i'm talking about are as follows:
Nikasil:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/78CC-ALU ... 1776wt_941
Polini:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/POLINI-7 ... 2359wt_941
OR
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/POLINI-7 ... 2795wt_962

i guess if i were to order a big bore kit (and not go stock), i'd also want to order other parts too, and not be ordering a new part every other week...like, i'd want to order the BBK, an exhaust that would work well, a carb, a different variator/clutch(if needed)...and anything else that i may need....

thanks again guys!!!

[TikiMan]

Im sitting in the same boat. Mine started making really low compression and now its out of commission and I still have made my mind up about big bore or stock...But I also need other work done to it also

[ottoman]

Hey guys I have a very low mile... under 300 miles... stock AF16 top end for sale, cyl, piston, rings, wrist pin and clips,, if you want to go the cheap route... $25 shipped to a forum member.

[shiba]

hmmm...i honestly dont know what i'd need to do a top end swap...but that seems like a lot....is that everything i'd need? or is there some stuff missing...like..special tools or w/e...i'd like to round up everything to i can try and get this done either asap, or over winter..

if thats everything i'll need (minus basic tools like sockets), i'm defiantly interested...because, cheap = good!

~Shiba