More torque out of 85' Spree

[Rancher1]

Hey guys, read a lot here and would appreciate any suggestions you may have. I picked up a nice stock 85 Spree and need more low end power. Don't need any high end power. I bought it to go up and down a long very steep driveway but it just doesn't make it.

I put in a 48mm BBK from Taz. I need to play with the carb tuning more as the 87# main jet is a bit rich for my setup. I'm running it with the air box on but have played with it off. It's better but still just doesn't have enough to make it up the hill (it's steep and I'm 190 lbs). I'd like to keep the air box on for the noise.

It seems like there some power left on the table, like maybe the clutch isn't biting hard enough. I thought about stiffer clutch springs to get a higher starting RPM but I'm not sure it would do it, plus it would seem like I'd want less spring so the pads bite harder?

Is there anything left to try or do I really have to go with a bigger carb w/ no air box? I suppose I could up gear but not even sure if that would do it and pressing the gear is a pain. Any suggestions?

[patthesoundguy]

That bbk should have the grunt to so that. My stock spree used to climb the steepest hill ever every day. I mean steep. Did you break it in yet? Did you check the compression? I would bake your exhaust. If its too restricted it will run super rich and have no guts. You will also need to richen the idle air mixture to get the bottom end throttle response. Running a of filter might be the easier way to go. The airbox in stock in modified form is too restricted. You also need to run premix in the tank along with the oil pump. 32:1 final mix. If you run 50:1 or 60:1 in the tank should be fine. The pump alone won't be enough oil to feed the lager displacement.

[Rancher1]

I didn't break in the new bore in yet - in process. Is there going to be that drastic a improvement as it breaks in? I did run it with the stock bore and it just didn't have the juice. I have not checked compression. My buddy might have the equipment and I'll look into it. Will bake the exhaust tomorrow.

I had to open up the air screw maybe three turns to get decent throttle response. Doesn't that suggest it wants a leaner pilot? I'll play with the needle clip positions.

What is an 'of' filter? I was hoping I could keep the air box on but I'll try get it tuned without. It's a deal breaker for me if I can't get it running the hill.

Thanks for the suggestion in oil. I'm using the oil pump and was wild a** guessing at what I needed to supplement it with.

I think I'll try scuff the clutch pads. They didn't look too slick and are already pretty thin so was reluctant to try it at first. At this point I'm willing to try whatever.

There is what sounds like a knock of some sort at idle. Almost like metal on metal. Goes away on throttle. Maybe a compression leak? There is a very minor leak at the exhaust gasket. Spits a little oil when run for awhile. I might need to replace that metal gasket. Are the paper material types any good?

I'm going to keep at it getting this bike to run at its best. It's starting to grow on me and would hate to sell it. Thanks for the suggestions.

[motormike]

That small exhaust leak is not doing your Spree any favors...fix it after you bake the pipe.

[Rancher1]

Will do. Are these paper gaskets any good?

http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.vi ... 1330419735

Or should I stick with a new metal OEM? Would permatex ultra copper hold up? Claimed up to 700 F. I'm not sure how hot the cylinder typically gets.

[Rancher1]

Cleaned out muffler by washing it out with Simple Green, then baking while spraying compressed air through it. Smoked out a ton. I didn't notice any subjective increase in flow (did the mouth to pipe end blow test), but it can only help. Ordered OEM metal gasket so we'll see if that holds up. The exhaust mating surfaces and angle look good.

Ordered a compression tester and will report back with numbers. What's a good number?

I can make it up the hill only if the bike's already moving. Stop on the hill and it's a walking aid.

[Wheelman-111]

Greetings:

I've used those metal/paper gaskets on big-blocks, but not so sure the design lends itself to the Spree flange anatomy. Stock is a "donut" style partially recessed into the port. Ultra Copper will burn. EGTs are hotter than 700.

[Rancher1]

Hi Wheelman. I'm actually reading an old article you posted about drilling out the pilot. Interesting stuff.

I'm coming to realize that the Spree is a fairly limited platform to mod and maintain for that matter. Still a fun little bike nonetheless.

[Wheelman-111]

Greetings:

The paper gaskets can be found locally at any autoparts store. Specify VW Beetle 1968 vintage. I suspect that's where the eBay vendor gets his...

[patthesoundguy]

I didn't break in the new bore in yet - in process. Is there going to be that drastic a improvement as it breaks in? I did run it with the stock bore and it just didn't have the juice. I have not checked compression. My buddy might have the equipment and I'll look into it. Will bake the exhaust tomorrow.

I had to open up the air screw maybe three turns to get decent throttle response. Doesn't that suggest it wants a leaner pilot? I'll play with the needle clip positions.

What is an 'of' filter? I was hoping I could keep the air box on but I'll try get it tuned without. It's a deal breaker for me if I can't get it running the hill.

Thanks for the suggestion in oil. I'm using the oil pump and was wild a** guessing at what I needed to supplement it with.

I think I'll try scuff the clutch pads. They didn't look too slick and are already pretty thin so was reluctant to try it at first. At this point I'm willing to try whatever.

There is what sounds like a knock of some sort at idle. Almost like metal on metal. Goes away on throttle. Maybe a compression leak? There is a very minor leak at the exhaust gasket. Spits a little oil when run for awhile. I might need to replace that metal gasket. Are the paper material types any good?

I'm going to keep at it getting this bike to run at its best. It's starting to grow on me and would hate to sell it. Thanks for the suggestions.

Sorry the of filter I spoke of was a typo... Supposed to say pod filter. That cylinder needs peoper break in and premix in the tank, before you can go shredding hills and blasting at wide open throttle I hope that the top end isnt toast Now your idle air adjustment does concern me some. You should be having to put the screw almost all the way in or fully in to get that setup to run properly. You have a restriction in the flow somewhere or the bystarter on the carb is malfunctioning or both. As I say a lot you need to do the Vacuum bystarter test as laid out in the manual. I use an ear syringe because its easier than digging out my vacuum tester. The exhaust leak is not good either, your best bet it the stock donut IMHO. Scuffing the clutch pads is never bad and usually needs to be done with the increased torque of a big bore kit. 220 sandpaper in a quick swirling motion and hit them with brake clean then do the clutch bell as well you may need emery cloth for that. The metal to metal sound is bad any way you slice it. I would investigate that. Could be any number of things... You can keep the air box but you need to modify it with special filter plugs from UNI, or drill some 1/2 holes in the lid there is specific amount of holes to drill can't remember how many at the moment. You also need to bake the pipe, simple green will not remove carbon deposits and would only remove a small amount of gunk build up. The only chemical way to clean it is sodium hydroxide drain cleaner but its nasty and dangerous. Bake the pipe it the safest and most efficient way. Just blowing through it won't tell you much there has to be a certain flow dynamic in there that you just cants sense by blowing through it.

[Rancher1]

Well, as I'm waiting for the exhaust gasket, I did a compression test on a cold engine - peaked at 95 psi. That's serious. When I installed the BBK, there were three total gaskets. One metal for the cylinder to cylinder head, and two paper for cylinder to engine. The instructions said to put on BOTH cylinder/engine gaskets. Is that incorrect? I just assumed it was that way to give a little more piston clearance to the head because at full extension it's darn close to the head.

Where else could the leak be? With the rings on it seemed like a tight fit. I was careful to get the ring orientation right.

[Wheelman-111]

Greetings:

Test compression with the carb wide open or remove the carb. Reeds must be sound. If you did that and still see 95PSI, examine the bore and/orcylinder for scuffing.

[patthesoundguy]

I agree look for damaged cylinder. Another possibility is bad crank seals which is an easy fix unless the top end is toast.

[Rancher1]

I pulled the carb off and still getting 95 PSI compression. Can anyone with a 48mm BBK report back what pressure they get? Maybe 95 PSI is normal for this kit? I pulled the cylinder and the bore is pristine - no scuffing at all. Rings seem tight enough. Checked the gaskets and they appear to be in serviceable shape. Maybe I need to get a leak down tester and pressurize it to find any leaks. There isn't any visible oil by the crank bearings externally.

When I pulled the carb I noticed two things. The first was that there's supposed to be a fat gasket (I think Honda calls it a temperature insulator or something) between the carb and manifold. There isn't one on my bike. I'll get that ordered but don't think it'll be critical for me because I won't be riding it long enough for any engine heat to migrate over to the carb. But maybe I don't really know what it does.

The second thing was one of the reeds was a little sticky. I pushed on it and it kinda popped open then closed again. It opens freely now. The other one kinda clicks slightly when it opens. They both appear to close tightly. Not sure if that was an existing issue.

The good news is the throttle response is much better and I don't have to back out the air screw all the way to get performance. I can leave it in the 2 turn realm.

Went WOT down the street and it topped out at 25mph. The engine sounds right and I'm sure there's some power there being held back by the gearing ratio. I'm ok with that since I don't need the high end speed.

I'm leaving the airbox cover open a crack to let it breath better. I'm a little reluctant to drill holes in it for the moment. Who knows, if I catch the bug I might just put in the 21mm carb kit to give the bore the juice it needs.

One day I may hackup the gearbox cover and put in a dio clutch per the good experience of some other Spreesters here. I think stiffer clutch springs to get the RPM up before engaging could work very well for my needs. Hmm, I'm already starting to like that idea.

[Wheelman-111]

Greetings:

The Compression test relies on air getting to the cylinder to be ... uh... Compressed. If the reeds aren't opening or a closed throttle is preventing air from entering, compression readings will be falsely low. Same goes with a reed that sticks open or a bad crank seal and some of the air blows back out. 95 should be enough to start and run, but if it's a true value you could afford to have it a bit higher. Head and Base Gasket thicknesses affect the Compression ratio a good deal too.

Dio clutches are designed to spin the "wrong" way, so they may not lock up properly and lose grip once underway. It may or may not be possible to pivot the shoes from the opposite end to fix that, but it'll take some work for sure.