2000 Elite S Build - "Mr. Grey"

[Rancher1]

Edit: I decided to change the title of this thread as it's turned into more of a build thread than a technical topic. Mods could you move it to the build forum?

Well, I got incredibly lucky and procured a stock 2000 Elite S (SA50P)! Very stoked. In the process of cleaning it up and hopefully not finding anything too bad under the seat. In the meantime, it's time for me to get some parts ordered and mods done. I'm planning on having this bike replace my BBK Spree in short distance hill climbing duty. As such, looking to maximize low-end power and (for now) ignore the high-end speed compromise. So my setup plan is:

1. Port exhaust washer with dremel.
2. Remove restrictor plate on pulley.
3. Punch out second tab inside airbox.
4. Install a BBK. But which one?

Since I'd like the bike to be as quiet as possible, I'd like to keep the stock carb/airbox/pipe. I can't decide between the Malossi cast iron 72cc, or the Taiwan 90cc 50mm (Taz product). Anyone have experience with the 50mm BBK on an otherwise stock bike? Just wondering if the extra displacement of the 50mm isn't going to matter much with the stock carb bottleneck.

After those are taken care of, I'll consider trans mods if needed. What your guys thoughts on the bore options?

[Rancher1]

Graphite, I tried to purchase the Malossi kit from your website but it requires me to purchase the 3 pack. Website bug? I'm sure it's a great product but I think only 1 will do me great.

Also, I didn't see any clutch springs for a OEM clutch on your site. Do you guys carry them? Was also looking at a center spring and your Malossi's might be a tad too stiff for my soft-core build. Any others available? I haven't looked at my rollers yet but if they're squared I guess a stiff center spring doesn't matter much as I'll just buy heavy weights.

I gave the bike some test driving and it does feel like the clutch springs are toast. Hard to say on the center spring but I'm going to guess it's getting soft.

Anyone know where/how to get Honda keys copied? Dealer? I have an original.

Sorry, I know my thread isn't terribly interesting with my baby/budget mods. Believe it or not, I had a 94 SA50P back when it just came out and modded it pretty heavy. Stroker, ported, huge bore, 28mm carb, pipe, super tall gears. It was a beast and a ton of fun. I've forgotten some of that stuff and don't know the latest products. The Malossi and Polini bore kits were still popular back then. Now I'm just an old man that just needs a decent running bike quiet like a ninja lol!

[Rancher1]

I tried adding just one, but it prints this text, "malossi 3pack required!" in red right below the checkbox and doesn't add any to the cart. It's the same behavior with Safari, Chrome, and Firefox. It works on your side?

[1man8scoots]

I just got the same error on the cast malossi.

[Rancher1]

Parts ordered - thanks Graphite. What size jet is included with the kit and is it a good starting point for a derestricted stock SA50P? Is it common to richen needle clip position? Are exhaust bolts included with the kit? I didn't see them so assumed not. I'll order those elsewhere. I'd prefer not to reuse my old ones. They're rusted a bit and I know from past vise grip jobs, I tend to scratch the threads a little.

Well, opened her up and spent the day cleaning. It looks like oil was leaking out of the oil tank from the oil level float. The o-rings there look ok, but of the three, only one o-ring makes contact with the tank neck. Maybe a warped neck? Anyone else experience this? I cleaned up everything and will give it another try to see what happens. If it leaks again I'm just going to scrap the oil injection system, put in a plug, and straight premix. I thought about skipping the injection system from the start, but like the idea of some oil getting to the motor in case I make a bonehead move and forget to mix. I will be premixing a little even if the pump's used.

Anyone know where to buy those premix bottles with the measurer built in? I've only seen them with oil already in them, like the one I have for my 2-stroke weed wacker. Maybe I'll just buy more oil.

Also found that there was no air filter foam in the box! Cleaning the carb today and expecting to find small birds in the bowl.

Also noticed that the fan cover got rubbed up hard against the fan and grinded it down some. Maybe previous owner put her down on it? Didn't sound like there was contact while running but I'll pay attention to it now.

[1man8scoots]

The jet that comes with the bore kit is not usable in our style carbs. 85 or 90 jet from honda should do the trick.
If 6ou go to your local yamaha dealer they sell the maxima brand pre mix measure bottles. Or there's sur-mix style that look like a pancake batter measuring cup.
Personally I'd remove the oil pump but I have only 2t bikes and have jugs for premix.

[Rancher1]

Hmm, that's too bad. Description says for a stock Dio and thought the SA50 used the same carb. Graphite can you confirm? Dio's aren't even that popular in the US. I've only seen one years ago that the owner imported because he was an enthusiast.

I saw that Maxima Quick 2 Mix bottle but wasn't sure how it worked. Is there an oil reservoir inside? I was looking for one that had an oil reservoir and measured amount reservoir. Similar to this one:

http://www.homedepot.com/p/ECHO-16-oz-2 ... /100033949

Only thing is this has only one cap which makes it hard (but doable) to refill. Years ago everyone who was premixing used these kind of bottles. Just squeeze a couple of ounces and pour directly into moped tank after a fuel refill. Quick and no mess.

[Rancher1]

Thanks for info. I see that Honda's largest main jet is #88. I went ahead and purchased the Naraku brand jet kit (#74 through #96) for the Gurtner carbs from racingplanetusa.com per mousewheels suggestion: http://hondaspree.net/wiki/index.php5?t ... _Reference. Hopefully I can dial it in pretty close with that selection.

Ok, I came to my senses and going to plug the oil pump. It is a nice thing to have even oil supply from idle to WOT. Plus the thought of me having to clean another oil leak isn't appealing.

As there was no foam air filter, as expected the carb bowl had a nice selection of various organic additives (leaves etc.). Got it all cleaned out.

I Dremel'd out the exhaust washer with the red grinding stone bits. Wow, I don't remember it taking that long before. It's looking clean and smooth now. Next step is bake out on my grill. Then wire brush treatment and a high temp paint job.

I cut out the extra tab in airbox with Dremel and exacto knife.

Removed the restriction plate behind the front pulley/variator and pulled the clutch apart awaiting it's new shoe/center springs. Those nuts were a challenge to pull off without tools especially since they've probably never been removed since fabrication 15 years ago. I rigged up a large vise grip / screwdriver combo to hold the front plate and impact driver'd the nut out. Did something similar with the clutch bell nut. The clutch assembly nut was tougher. Had to put it sideways and tap it out with flathead screwdriver. Planning to put the Polini +15% in first with stock variator weights. Again I don't care about top end so I might even lighten the weights some depending on how it runs. Planning to put in 1k shoe springs as the relatively low RPM engagement is convenient for my limited use and hopefully the horsepower mods make up for the lower power band RPM up the hills.

Does the Malossi bore need porting? I guess I should have asked that first before pulling the trigger on order. I remember some bores performed well out of the box without porting (Polini's I think?) while others really needed porting for decent benefit.

[1man8scoots]

Honda can get you the jets you need for sure. Racing planet takes a while to get you the parts like g9 said.

[Rancher1]

Thanks for all the info guys. Help a lot to take the guessing game out. I need to put in a Partzilla order for misc stuff so I'll throw a #88 jet (sounds about right?) on there to get it running then fine tune it with the Naraku's when they eventually come later. Hmm, I should get a new BR6HSA plug also. Does that plug sound right for the Malossi bore? I'm in mild climate and won't be doing extended riding.

Does anyone sells oil plugs for an 85 Spree? Will the SA50 plug you guys sell work?

Now that the bikes apart, it go me thinking about body work. I need to get some ABS cement to patch up a couple minor tab cracks. I have an airless and HVLP sprayer but kinda prefer the rattle cans for convenience. Any suggestions on paint brand/types? I see some brands have automotive/acrylic types but a limited selection in colors. I'm a little partial to a metallic gray/black. I suppose it should be fine if I prime, use standard paint, then acrylic clear coat.

[Rancher1]

BBK installed and noticed the spark plug position/angle on the Malossi kit head is slightly different than the OEM head, causing the fan cover to be slightly non-aligned which means the spark plug cap doesn't fit as is. I suppose I could cut open a bigger opening in the fan cover to accommodate the plug, or could just remove the rubber spark plug cap. If the rubber cap is removed there isn't a seal there for directed air flow from the fan. Not sure if that impedes head cooling effectiveness significantly. What do you guys do?

[Rip_City_Spree]

I made the hole bigger to fit the cap snug. I don't know about running without the cap

[Dbroogs]

Looking forward to seeing your finished build. I am going down the same route!

72cc Malossi cast
Stock Airbox
Stock Carb- 85 main (will prob drill out to 90ish)
Stock Exhaust
New Vari-8g rollers as of now
9:1 gears

You'll have to keep me updated on the tuning with the stock setup.
Have fun with it bud

[Rancher1]

Just got everything together. Working on a very long post about the experience. Stay tuned.

[Rancher1]

Well, all the parts came in and I just got everything together and it's running well. Thanks to everyone who helped get me setup. And thanks to the forum as it's a wealth of invaluable information. In my attempt to give back to the forum, here's my consolidated story for others going down the same path.

Initial Assessment and Cleaning:

I picked up a stock 2000 SA50P with 2k miles. Previous owner had crashed it and replaced some parts, with some parts left with minor damage. There was an oil leak by the oil level sensor. It looked like the 3 o-rings making the seal there were a little sketch. I don't know if this is a common problem but a quick internet search showed at least a couple others who had the same issue. It might have been fixed by replacing the o-rings or oil tank (if it was the tank neck that was deformed). I didn't see any other leaks or places on gaskets where there might be an air leak. I drained the transmission oil but there wasn't much in there and it was pretty black. I'm guessing the original owner never really did any maintenance to the bike. Upon breaking her down for cleaning, I saw that the airbox foam filter was missing. That was a bummer as I was expecting the worse in the carb bowl. Opened up the carb and a decent amount of debris was in there but nothing overly alarming. I'm a little surprised it ran as it did in that form. Cleaned the carb very well in and out with carb cleaner and compressed air. Dishwashing soap and concentrated Simple Green was great in cleaning up all the oily goo on everything and it's easy on the skin. For the tougher caked on stuff I used strong solvents. I baked out the exhaust (don't forget to remove the rubber kick stand stop!) but it didn't smoke out too bad. As it heated up, I shot some compressed air in there to assist in the smoke flushing. Next I took a wire brush on the angle grinder to work on the exterior of the exhaust. Worked all the rust off then painted it with Rustoleum 2000 deg engine flat black. I put a few medium coats on it. When I pulled the carb I found out the petcock wasn't working. Cleaned it out and did suck tests and it appeared to be working, but I just put fuel back in it for the first time and looks like it's still broke. I'll deal with that one later - it'll still flow fine for now.

Modifications:

I wanted power without the noise and my usage is very limited (basically I'm just using it around the hilly property). I thought a stock 94-01 SA50 variant with a couple power upgrades would do the trick fine. Since I wanted it quiet I would stick with the the stock carb/airbox. My plan was to just derestrict my SA50P, put in a 72cc+ BBK, and make a couple of transmission mods to round it out. I also decided (after some back and forth) to remove the oil tank, put in a plug, and do straight premix. So, I ordered:

- Malossi Cast Iron BBK 72cc
- Oil delete plug
- Polini center/contra springs (+7% and +15%)
- Koso 1k RPM clutch springs
- #88 main jet (Honda OEM) and a #74-#96 main jet kit (Naraku, for Gurtner carbs)

While the parts were being shipped I went ahead and derestricted the bike: (1) dremel out exhaust washer, (2) removed speed restrictor in front pulley, (3) cut out the extra tab inside airbox, (4) replace main jet with something bigger and since I was going BBK started with a #88. Dremeling out the exahaust washer took a lot longer than I remembered! I used a cylinderical red stone bit at max speed. I wore gloves, hearing, eye, and inhalation protection. Removing the speed restrictor plate is pretty straight forward so long as you can get that front nut off the drive face. I used a big vise grip to grab the drive face plate, wedged a screwdriver to hold the vise grip to the engine case, and was able to work the nut free. Inspect the rollers for flatness before putting it back together. Be careful putting the belt and drive face nut back on so you don't strip the splines on shaft. I found the best way put it back on was to get the belt on the rear clutch pulley, then pull the belt plate (not sure what you call it) toward you to compress the center/contra spring letting the belt hold it in the compressed state. This gives the belt a lot of slack for you to work with as you put the front pulley together. With all that slack you should be able to put the drive face on easy and can feel when it's sitting properly in it's shaft splines/grooves.

While I had the transmission apart I pulled the clutch springs and center spring out. I don't have a clutch tool to hold the clutch bell so I used the vise grips to grab between two of the face holes, than wedges it to the ground with a big pipe/wrench/whatever. Now you should be able to work that nut off. Once the bell is off, you got another challenge getting the big (39mm?) nut off the clutch assembly. Since I didn't have the socket, I once again did it the "whatever you got" style. The nut was really stuck on there. I put some cloth down on the ground and laid the clutch down on it. Then standing on it with both feet on the edges, used a flat head screwdriver to catch the nut edge and hammered it loose. You might have to notch it in a little bit to give it a better bite location. I marked the nut/clutch with a sharpie line so I knew if I was making any progress getting it loose. Once you get it moving, remain standing on the edges of the clutch and work the nut free. Be aware that it's under the center spring pressure so keep standing on it till you're ready to release it! Then I reached down and put weight on it with my hands so I could remove my feet and release it. Next, to get the clutch springs out I used a vise grip again (love that thing) to grab the edges of the spring (on the more open side) and carefully pull it away to unhook the spring. Obviously you'll need a decent amount of force so be careful it doesn't break loose and you elbow the garage wall. I put the new springs in the same way. Since they were only 1k RPM they were relatively soft. When I put in stiffer ones, I had to use a flathead screwdriver to fulcrum them into place, but I don't like that way since I tended to scratch the clutch a little bit. While I was in there, I scuffed up the clutch pads a little bit with coarse sand paper in a cross directional motion (putting small scratches perpendicular to the direction the pads normally engage). I put everything back together basically in the reverse order.

Once all the parts came in I installed the BBK. The kit additionally includes a carbon fiber reed (didn't use), main jet for the Dio (unable to use), an exhaust gasket, and two exhaust mount bolts (but no nuts). I pulled the old head/cylinder off and scraped off any remnants of cylinder gasket material from engine case. I put in some shop paper towel in crank area to catch debris then shop vac'd out any little bits. Getting the piston clips off to remove the old piston isn't too bad with needle noise pliers. You only need to remove one side then you can slide the piston pin/shaft out of the open side to remove piston (careful the piston pin bearing may fall out of the connecting rod so take note).

Now is a good time to install the exhaust studs into the new BBK cylinder. Use two M6 nuts put in back to back to drive the studs in. The short side of the studs goes into the cylinder. You spin one nut on the stud almost to the end, then put a second nut right behind it. Together these act as a locked on single nut you can use to drive the stud into cylinder. I put high temp anti-seize on the studs before going in. After those are on, I washed the new BBK down with dishwashing soap and a toothbrush. Blasted it with compressed air and left it to dry. After dry I coated the bore, piston, rings, anything in physical contact with stuff with 2-stroke oil. Put the piston rings in carefully trying not to scratch the piston. After that, get one of the piston pin clips installed. I found it easier to work on the right side (exhaust side) of the bike as the carb isn't in the way, so I installed the first pin clip on the opposite side while the piston isn't mounted yet. Make sure you have the "EX" stamp oriented the right way toward the exhaust when you're doing this. With the clip in, the piston should go in without drama (make sure the piston pin bearing is still there!). Now the hard part... Getting in the second piston clip while the piston is installed. I used thin needle nose pliers to grab the clip close to it's edge/opening. Then try to guesstimate how much the clip will compress as I twist, so that it will just clear the edge of the piston and let the nose of the plier drop into that little slot in the piston. Careful not to over bend the clip as it needs to be tight in it's slot or it'll come free and ruin your piston/cylinder/day. Now's a good time to put in the cylinder gasket. After that, the second hardest part of the install. Getting the cylinder over the piston. You got to find the notches in the piston ring grooves by rotating it so that as the rings are compressed everything is flush. Take mental note of where these notches are. I prefer to install the cylinder one ring at a time. First I compress the top ring making sure the notch/ring groove is correct and while holding it with one had, drop in the cylinder with the other. You might need to twist a tiny bit to get it to fit in there. Once that top ring makes it into the cylinder, repeat for the second ring. Go slow as you don't want to unduly scratch the rings/cylinder. Buttoning up the rest is pretty straight forward. As the spark plug angle/location on the Malossi head is slightly different than the OEM head, you'll need to either remove the rubber spark plug cap (that sealed the air gap) or you can cut out a little bit of the cover to fit with the rubber spark plug cap installed. I opted to cut the fan cover with a dremel. With the spark plug cap installed, there will still be a bit of a gap. I haven't decided if I want to do something about that or leave it as is.

Now the oil delete plug. I removed all the oil tank paraphernalia including the mount that holds the oil pump in place. To properly install the oil delete plug you additionally need (I think it should come with the kit as purchased) a shorter M6'ish bolt/nut (old bolt is kinda long) and a large fender type washer. You need this to hold the delete plug down into it's new location. If you can't find a perfect length bolt, you can install it with the bolt head down with it's threads facing up. For the washer I found a big one but had to dremel out the hole to fit an M6 bolt.

Engine Tuning:

So I just put everything together and got it buttoned up and did a first start. Started right away and idled for a bit, blipped the throttle a little and it dies. Restarted and let it sit at idle, it goes for a little bit then dies. Restarted and quick WOT and it hesitates but picks right up after 1/2 throttle, let it idle and again and it eventually dies. Any 0-1/2 throttle and it fades to death. My first thought is dangit clogged pilot, which I had cleaned well. Since there was all that other junk in the bowl (since no air foam filter) maybe I pushed something into the pilot holes. Pulled the carb, did a light test and everything seems fine. Cleaned it by blowing from inside the throttle body outward, hoping whatever is stuck on there gets blown outward. Put it back in and the same thing. Dang... I know it's in the pilot fuel circuit and not the main because of the throttle response. I'm thinking it feels like it's starved of fuel but I cleaned the pilot and can't change it out to something bigger. The only thing left is the air mixture screw which I had set for the standard 1-3/4 turn out. For giggles I close it down all the way and back out 1/4 turn. Boom, holds idle and actually has decent response. At the high end, 3/4 throttle and up feels/sounds pretty good. This is with a #88 main jet. I'm going to run this for a little while until the other jet kit arrives (and it sounds like it'll be awhile). I would like to try some larger jetting to see what she'll be happiest with, but #88 doesn't sound like she's lean. I also want to generally run a little richer because of my specific usage, which is basically start her up, WOT up a steep big hill, then turn off. I'm sure that's not the best usage for longevity. I premix 32:1 Maxima Scooter Pro 2-Stroke oil (synthetic). So there is it guys, get the air mix screw in there deep and #88 or up on the main.

I was never a big subscriber to all the different break-in procedures. Maybe I'm just ignorant. I suppose I do something that is in between a soft and hard break-in. My rules are: run it at the correct jetting or slightly richer, give it some idle warmup time, ride it but not too long and hard trying to keep the RPM reasonable, and definitely don't let it overheat. WOT is ok so long as it's short enough not to overheat and it can rest afterward. I'm ready for people to tell me I'm doing it wrong now

Transmission Tuning:

I installed Koso 1k RPM clutch springs and they feel just like the stock OEMs. Now that I think about it, I think the stocks are 1k RPM haha. Oh well. The engagement is very early but for my usage it'll be ok. If I could do it again I'd put in 1.5k or 2k RPM. I'm using the Polini +15% for the center/contra spring with the stock weights/ramp plate/pulley/gears/etc. With that combination the bike wants to lift the front tire. It's very torquey with a wide low-end power band before it up shifts. This works for me for now but my usage is very unusual. I'll mess more with the transmission after I'm more comfortable the bore and springs have settled in. If I was building this as a street bike I'd put in different weights/pulley/ramp plate/contra spring/gearing to even out the power band and provide some top end speed.

Now I get to dump untold amounts of money into making it look pretty and provide no performance usefulness whatsoever.