Most sensible & worthy upgrade path for Spree & Elite E

Does your Spree/Elite already run great, and you're trying to make it quicker/faster? Need a monster motor swap? Discuss your ideas here.

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eclark5483
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Most sensible & worthy upgrade path for Spree & Elite E

Post by eclark5483 » Fri Sep 08, 2017 7:28 pm

So, ya say you want your Spree to be able to do this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZtS8u67ILg

The most sensible, and value worthy upgrade path for a Spree NQ50 (including Nifty 50 / Vision Mini / Eve / Smile) & Elite E series (SB50), AF05/AF06E SINGLE GEARED ENGINE, is outlined in the Hondaspree.net wiki here.

http://hondaspree.net/wiki/index.php5?t ... _and_Spree

If you want to make your Spree go faster, follow that path in the correct order and you'll be good. I can't emphasize enough on doing this in the correct order. I spent an entire summer with buddies of mine meticulously testing all kinds of configurations. See this topic: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=33591

The problems we had, and then fixed, were done backwards (reverse engineered), till we could ABSOLUTELY WITHOUT A DOUBT trace back the key bottleneck to the AF05's intake system.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIVuMWGCNm4

The main takeaway that I was looking for, was how do you get a Spree to go fast, and what makes the most sense. I had read many pages on this site, with many different paths that people have taken, all the different methods. What I attempted to do, was get that down to an art. Failure was not an option for me..... I read horror stories of BBK's seizing up, soft seizing, mufflers getting hot.... What I had discovered a couple thousand dollars and tons of dyno testing later, was that the key to doing it right, has ALWAYS been in the wiki page. You just need to do it in order. TONS of info on the boards here from present members and past members. What you will find, over and over, is regular speedup & tuning tricks don't work all that well on Honda's highly crippled, single geared, AF05 block. That speed up you got, out of following some absurd notion, may have only made you run lean and this is why you think you have improved.. Lean running bikes put out more power, dark looking plugs don't always tell the tale, don't be fooled!!

Did someone tell you to just run 32:1? Did they tell you to just drill the muffler? Tell you to run a pod filter? Tell you to put a 48mm Big Bore Kit in it? Did you BUY a BBK and it soft seizes? These can be expensive fixes, but pay attention, hopefully you will have knowledge about the AF05 after reading this tutorial that will save you some time and money. But first let me say, do NOT run a 48mm Big Bore Kit on this bike without first understanding what needs to be done to make that possible. VERY VERY high risk of blowing the piston!! The main quirk of a Spree, is that it was a cheap, no frills bike that could be found brand new back in the 80's for $399. Don't think for a moment, that the cheapest bike in the Honda lineup, was any match for their other offerings. Also, don't fool yourself into believing that after applying these techniques that your Spree will be close to matching what today's modern engines can accomplish. That simply will never be the case considering the limitations of the engine, but speeds of 45+ are certainly possible.

There are plenty of Sprees to be found because they were so cheap back then, but keep in mind, the parts in them are now considered vintage. If you want the slowest, cheapest engine to perform anywhere near what today's 50cc scooters do, forget it. You will need to swap the engine. However, if your intention is to spend money getting the most out of the stock engine, then you need to do it right the first time.

Just follow the wiki, skip the things you might not need if you are on a budget, like head milling and fancy pipes. But follow the upgrade path to a "T", and you WILL have a fast Spree. Stop at any time.. maybe you only wanna go so far as step 5.. This is quite OK, good luck... For that effort, your Spree will now be just as powerful and stable as an Elite E, and you can probably expect speeds of around 35mph+. And if you are skilled at porting, this upgrade has cost you nothing but time and effort if you think it through. Congrats!! But..... be forewarned on going further then this to achieve even higher speeds. And again, do the steps in order !!

To break that down, it's

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Step 1:Enlarge stock manifold (you can skip the Pulley mod) 
Ported Spree Intake
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Professionally Ported SB50 Intake:
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So before you try anything else, give the Spree better intake lungs. The #1 problem, with the AF05 engine, is the INTAKE. Thinking of a better pipe? Maybe a BBK? Bigger jet like a #70? All 3?? I like you all ready, welcome to the world of the Spree. So, no matter if you do one and or a combo of any of the other of these things, they each have 1 thing in common with each other. They would ALL benefit from having a better intake system, so START THERE. You can get to the BBK, GEARS, MLM, ETC,ETC, CACHING, CACHING later. Either take your own intake, or buy a cheapy off of eBay to practice on, get a dremel with a cone stone wheel, and port the intake yourself. Alternately, there is TAZ!! He is a well known, and well respected eBay seller [HONDASPREE.NET MEMBER: memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=9513 ] who's Store page can be found here:

https://www.ebay.com/sch/chopchop*123/m ... pg=&_from=

He DOES offer an all in 1 solution to the intake problem that is plaguing the Spree with his carb kits. Keep reading for optimal tuning on these... More info on the kit found here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=34705

Tazland 21mm Spree/Elite E carb kit:

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Don't waste 1 more dime trying conventional tricks on a quest for "keeping up with traffic", or the ever elusive wheelies. It's all gonna come down to your intake. Start there, or swap it out now for an AF16/DIO (or even a variated AF05E).

http://hondaspree.net/wiki/index.php5?t ... _Swap_Info

AF05E Motor Mount swap
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Sprees don't go fast, they run well. You have to bring the engine up to the level of the Elite E first if you want more performance. If you have no way of doing this, then DO NOT upgrade your Spree anymore. DO NOT PROCEED WITH ANY OF THE OTHER STEPS!! Safe bet, is preserve that engine, and maybe get a Taz carb kit. You'll really gain very very little going forward, unless you address the intake system of the Spree. You start where HONDA started when they took full advantage of the AF05.

Info on porting is found in the wiki here: http://hondaspree.net/wiki/index.php5?t ... the_Intake

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 Step 2 Mill head / increase compression 
http://hondaspree.net/wiki/index.php5?t ... ds_-_Spree

This step can be skipped for the most part, but it does play a key role in final compression. If you recently won the Megamillions jackpot and live in Illinois, and can afford to have it done, then don't play games.. Use the head from an 84-85' Spree, and lets get some precision milling done for an awesome squish!! Otherwise.. meh.. skip it, your good.... moving on..

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 Step 3 Enlarge exhaust port 
    Step 4 Construct expansion chamber 
OK, NOW, we can talk about your muffler kid.. er.... 40somethingish dude/chick.. who cares? But anyways, so now that the intake was taken care of, hows that Spree running now that you've been riding it around with that intake revamp and cleaned out muffler.. You DID clean the muffler already right? Of course you did, just asking. Go bold, or go home on this one. Swapping an 84' muffler for an 86' would only be for aesthetics. No real gains worth writing to grandma, who gave it to you, about. Again, think to yourself.. hmm, what would HONDA do? That again, means for any real gains, you must bring it up to the level of the Elite E. Not in the budget? No big deal, a CLEAN muffler that has been BBQ'd should perform just fine for your needs.

Link to info on muffler cleaning:
http://hondaspree.net/wiki/index.php5/E ... r_Cleaning

But got some cash to "LITERALLY" waste, You can test out your high school Junior year shop, welding skills, spend 50 bucks on a Jiang Wayne pipe, hack it to fit the Spree, and get HONDA ELITE E, type performance, or REALLY go on a (spending) SPREE, and buy an MLM people's pipe with a tuned expansion chamber. This is an excellent pipe that you can get 11,000+ RPM's out of. But it is quite pricey. Recommend serious builders only, invest in this pipe. It WILL help out your top end even if you stay at 49cc. But then, please ask yourself.. do you REALLY, REALLY wanna take that engine into the 11,000rpm+ territory? Just sayin.....

MLM (Motion Left Mopeds) Tuned pipe for Spree/Elite E:
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Now, you may have heard that some Spree mufflers are restricted, this is true. No, there isn't a washer welded in like some think. The restriction can be found just before the muffler, and in order to get rid of it, you will simply need a different muffler. Here is how you identify whether you do or do not have a restricted muffler. In the image below you will see 2 mufflers, on the left is an Iowa Edition Spree which does have the restriction... notice the inlet to the muffler is smaller then the one on the right. The muffler on the right is a non restricted Spree muffler. If you are looking around for a replacement muffler, look for one that is similar to the one on the right, not the left. Just this change by itself, can gain you about 5mph.

Restricted .vs Non Restricted Muffler
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Step 5 Upgrade to SB50 manifold and reeds

Professionally ported SB50 reeds:
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OR... get a better reed system when you take care of step 1. At this point, you have either already saved yourself a step by doing this in step 1, or you call this the next step. Look for SB50 reeds, which are often sold on eBay as "SPREE REEDS", read the wiki and learn the difference and what to look for.

http://hondaspree.net/wiki/index.php5?t ... _Reeds_Mod

*NOTE: Some Sprees already have SB50 reeds, so you might save yourself some searching if you check them out. You will typically see SB50 type reeds in 86-87' model year Sprees, but not always.

REPLACEMENT SB50 REEDS ARE AVAILABLE FOR PURCHASE FROM THE SITE ADMIN, HERE:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/142928234773

The object here, is make sure the AF05 block that came stock with your Spree, can get full advantage of a more open intake system. By now, your Spree should be running like a beast if you have completed these steps. You'll find it is so much more robust. One thing to note, up until this point, you SHOULD be using your stock air box with a clean & properly oiled filter. After completing the steps to allow the Spree to breathe better, you may now experiment with aftermarket pod filters. You may now consider a bump up in the main jet size. Largest size Honda used was a #68, you may be able to use a #70 or higher with a pod filter.

Please note EVERY engine that you come across, will probably need a bump up higher in the main jet if you switch to a pod filter system. It is still however, recommended that you preserve the air box system. You may be able to let it breathe better with some small holes drilled in the airbox since it can now breathe better with intake porting/change, but do not drill or modify your airbox unless you have performed step 1&5, and only do so with small holes placed close to the normal inlet on the lid.

Airbox with holes drilled
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Stopping at this point, is probably what you'll want to do. What I have outlined so far, will bump your Spree up to and even past the level of Honda's Elite E scooter which also utilized the AF05 engine. The key difference between the Spree and Elite E, were the intake used and the muffler. This plus the gears from an 86-87 Spree, will yield you 35mph+, which is probably in the range that most people are wanting to elevate to anyway. So want to press forward more?? Did all the steps??

All THAT is done and done?? Good, NOW, next step..

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Step 6 Bore kit 
PROFESSIONALLY PORTED TAZLAND 48mm BBK
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Time for a Taz kit friend.

https://www.ebay.com/sch/chopchop*123/m ... pg=&_from=

I honestly wouldn't buy one, unless FOR SURE, step 1 and 5 are done and done. Got it handled? The Taz BBK, will now be able to unlock some fun on stock gears. Whatever top speed you are capable of with it, you should, at this point, be already able to achieve if you have already followed steps 1-5. The BBK, is gonna make hitting that top speed so much quicker. Your jetting will change at this step. You'll have to fine tune it. If your 25mph Spree only gained to 30mph, maybe 32+ by doing steps 1-5, then keep the BBK expectations in that speed range. Low geared Sprees ( 84'-85'+All Year Iowa Editions) are the most fun for take off with a BBK. Mid gears like the 13T (86'-87' non-Iowa Edition) are the most street worthy for in town. Should be good for 35+. High gears get you past 40 with awful takeoff. Don't even consider the next step without doing step 6 first.

P.S. Welcome to the 4HP+ Club. Ain't it a blast!! If it was 1986' all over again and you got your hands on a Taz kit, you'd be screaming this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dJolYw8tnk

I suggest running his kit only 2 ways. Using a deleted oil pump and running 32:1, or my recommended way. Run 96:1 in your tank, retain the oil pump. If using a higher end Polini carb, you will need a "Stage6" 23mm CT adapter if using his carb kit's with this BBK.

I have to be honest here. Marc is a good guy, but there are quality issues with the BBK kits. The main reason I recommend running 96:1 and retaining your pump, is in case the BBK fails and you need to revert back to the old piston. TEST THE WATERS if using a 48mm BBK, and expect it to seize. Don't end up having to run premix all the time on a stock piston you had to revert to because you wanted to try a BBK. Know what you are getting into, save some money by just swapping the engine maybe.. but really really THINK first before buying a BBK. Stage 6 is a risky decision for both the Spree/NQ50 variance and the SB50 Elite E engines. The main problem with the BBK, is it comes from China or where-ever and sometimes is out of round from shoddy manufacturing. Alas, there are not really many options when it comes to using a bigger piston, so it's a roll of the dice at best.. Would seriously recommend having the BBK ported to remove any slag, this will increase the odds of success but not guarantee it... But if it works out... then.. yup.. next step...

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Step 7 Gear ratio change 
It's too bad Honda never designed the Spree with a CVT system, and unfortunately, in all these years, there has never been one found that you can put in it, so you are, unfortunately, stuck with 1 gear speed. Top speed on a Spree, is gonna come down to really 2 things since you have only 1 gear. How high you can rev, and what ratio your gears are.
EDITED TO ADD: HOW FAT YOU ARE MAKES A DIFFERENCE TOO!!

http://hondaspree.net/wiki/index.php5?t ... ion_Ratios


We had a classic car and bike rally in town the other day, so mine wasn't the only one cruising. I'd be at the stop light and I could twist the throttle and be able to lift my (300+lb fatazz) feet up to the floorboard without having to give it a Flintstones push to keep it going, but acceleration from a dead stop will annoy people in back of you slightly, at least till you pick up to 10mph, then it flows well into traffic at 40+. That was using 15:81 Taz gears. Great for long stretch driving, terrible for block to block traffic lights. My skinny 115lb daughter can get on it and just GO!! For a realistic speed boost, skip the fries with that cheeseburger fatso. It's a Spree, you got 1 gear, choose high or low, you can't have it both ways and that sugs the big one. Myself personally, I chose BOTH ways. Of course... took me 2 Sprees. 1 for congested driving, 1 for open. If ever there is a time you should rethink by saying "keep up with traffic", it would be now, define "TRAFFIC" You don't HAVE TO buy Taz gears if you are a cheapskate.... NOW you can try the pulley mod with an AX24 belt... if you dare, wouldn't do both together unless your wanna be stupid slow at launch, AND/OR are trying for a world's Speed record on a stock AF05 block or something..

http://hondaspree.net/wiki/index.php5?t ... Pulley_Mod

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 Step 8 Upsized carb
Congratulations on making it to this final step. If you were an idiot, and went out and bought a brand new carb instead of redoing your stock carb, you kind of wasted some money. I hate to bring this up now, but you do not need a new carb to do steps 1-7. You could always port the carb, port the spacer between the carb and intake...

Now, a little background here on the Spree carb and the reason Honda only offered a #68 jet as the largest jet, and why you would want to go ahead and port match these if you are looking to go higher than a #68... If you measure the opening to the carb, you will find it is a 13.5mm opening (13.5mm carb). From that, we can use the same principles of the Dellorto brand carbs to find the ideal jet (Mouth MM x5).

Reference: https://www.tuningmatters.com/how-tos/h ... -jet-size/

In the case of the Spree carb, that 13.5mm opening, is multiplied times 5 to give us 67.5, so a slightly rich #68 MAX makes sense here, though this is NOT a dellorto carb, so there is some wiggle room. The carb is also tuned to the weak intake and airbox, so running it stock is about the only way you wanna go. You CAN upjet them and get some results, but for the most part, the carb starts tapping out somewhere around a 70-72 jet on a stock piston, and somewhere in the low 80's on a BBK. No matter how much more fuel (jet size) you try feeding it, the 13.5mm mouth on a BBK is making the vacuum too tight and the bike will run lean if you use it. You CAN find a main that will work on a BBK, but like I said, if you want more, you need a better intake. WHICH OF COURSE YOU ALREADY TOOK CARE OF BECAUSE YOU FOLLOWED THE STEPS IN ORDER, RIGHT?

On my bike with a 17mm (17.5mm) Polini with BBK, I run an #88 maximum.. or 17.5mmx5=87.5. The 21mm carb kits go 21x5=#105 main jet max. Though keep in mind, you are dealing with either 49cc or 68cc even with porting changes, so even though you can go that high, this is probably way too much fuel. But with a stock Spree carb, 13.5mm isn't really big enough to run enough fuel for the BBK, but you can get a little more out of it for a typical 49cc bike. Not to be confused here, I'm not saying you can't use a stock carb with the BBK. You absolutely can. I'm just saying if you want a little more out of that stock carb though, you'll be absolutely sure the intake is ported and carb and spacer are port matched before trying a BBK with a stock intake, much less a stock carb. Doing this without the BBK will absolutely increase power. So perhaps skipping the BBK would be ideal.. it's your money!!

Step 8 can, and can't make much of a difference, depending on it's application before hand. For instance, lets say in step 1, you decide you want to upgrade the intake to an SB50 intake, which only has 1 hole for vacuum. Upsizing/upgrading the carb in that case, helps. A Polini (17mm MAX) carb, has the needed extra nipple for feeding the oil pump into. You simply hook it up there. Otherwise, you need no other carb to run a well ported Spree intake system with SB50 reeds.

ALSO, take note that the MAXIMUM size carb you can run on a Spree/Elite E, is an 18mm (18.5mm). This is because of the pesky limitations of the block itself. You could have the block itself ported and bump up to a 19mm, but for what it's worth.. why bother? Personally, I use a 17mm Polini CP carb. Mikuni also makes a carb that works well too. Going with anything bigger then an 18.5mm also decreases vacuum in the venturi. You can run into starting and tuning issues too, it will work, but not as well as a smaller, properly sized carb would.

As of now, Taz is offering 21mm carb kits for the Spree. They are a quick fix for the intake woos, but you CAN find these same parts at better prices if you bargain shop.
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=34705
Take note of description of setup and possible other things you may or may not want to do.

So quick re-cap on the carbs (the brand, price, and choice is yours), your range should be between a 13.5mm to an 18.5mm max, BECAUSE OF the block limitations. This should help one narrow down their options.

The bottom line here, is in order to make a Spree go fast (45mph+), you need to invest alot of effort and research and most important.. money. You need to do it in the proper order, or else you gain virtually nothing but MAYBE a couple miles per hour and a shoddy running bike that you will forever be tuning and never getting just right. Again, I must REALLY REALLY emphasize doing the performance MODS in the proper order that I, and many others who have contributed over the years to the WIKI have outlined!!

Please, by all means, enjoy the single geared Spree, but know it's limitations. And thank you for preserving a classic ride!!

If you are an Elite E owner, you saved yourself some steps and some money, but please note, all in all, if you want a fast Spree/Elite E, it's probably cheaper to just swap the engine. YOU'LL GAIN MORE PERFORMANCE, A BETTER TAKE OFF AND A HIGHER TOP SPEED WITH JUST THE STOCK AF16 ENGINE BEFORE USING PERFORMANCE PARTS VERSUS SPENDING OVER $500 TO MAKE A SPREE ENGINE GO FAST. But perhaps it may be more in reach to try and hack the Spree/Elite E, with the intake porting mods. More of a collector's project if you use the stock engine. But, in my HONEST opinion... KEEP THE ENGINE STOCK AND IT WILL RUN FOREVER :thumbsup: I honestly can't recommend using the performance techniques I have outlined on a Spree, the engine is poorly designed, I honestly recommend a motor swap for a better value for your money. But these things ARE fun to build up if wasting money is no big deal for you. Do it right and you WILL gain a decent Spree that reaches 45+. But caution, this high speed comes with a high price, you'll be running at high RPM's and will cause lots of un-needed stress on the engine just to reach that 45+ mark!!

Have fun kids. :thumbwink:

P.S., get your clutch repadded here: http://www.jwpartsplus.com/jw-clutch-worx.html
Buy direct from them rather than their eBay store to bypass the extravagant fees eBay and Paypal monopolize to profit from causing them to raise their prices.. That'll show the man !!

And if you want to replace clutch springs, use YELLOW (2500 rpm) Leo Vince springs for the Yamaha Jog. Here is a link to some:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/331475908975

HOLY SMOKES 50 MPH!!
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EVAN'S SETUP

Part 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJeTDYYu9a8

Part 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0sgLn__GDB0

Evan's Tazland Intake Setup

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MINE (top speed on a Dynojet 250i : 52 mph@11,000 rpm)

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Indian Motorcycle tech @ Polaris Industries, B.A. Information Technology, A.A. Engineering
3 Sprees
1 ATM50-A1
1 Indian AMI-50
World's Greatest Spree: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lU49lL_Xx4s
Want to make a Spree engine go fast? CLICK HERE: LINK

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