2001 Elite performance questions

Does your Spree/Elite already run great, and you're trying to make it quicker/faster? Need a monster motor swap? Discuss your ideas here.

Moderator: Moderator

User avatar
eclark5483
CB900F
CB900F
Posts: 1253
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2016 5:15 am
Location: Spencer Iowa
Contact:

Re: 2001 Elite performance questions

Post by eclark5483 » Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:29 am

12-12.5 stoich air fuel is what you are shooting for on the carb side on most any 2 stroke. While you won't know if you hit that without an A/F sensor in your tail pipe or with a dyno, you know you are pretty dang spot on or close when you look at the plug and it's a nice Hershey bar┬«Ôäó color of brown. From there, you can work on the tranny. Although, it would be more worthy to work on the CVT/transmission first before getting the engine tunes right. This isn't always the case, but it is the case when dealing with a stock engine configuration. This is why I said CVT is a good place to start. Get the most out of the tranny first, then experiment with the engine. Carb tuning is much much harder then people want to believe or think it is. At least when you do the CVT first, you'll be able to actually tell if tuning changes to the engine have worked and you won't have to second guess if maybe the rollers have a flat spot, or the clutch springs are too weak, or contra too loose/tight. CVT tuning is also a pain, but it really does play a key role in how much you can get out of your engine no matter what the displacement or no matter what the carb setup is.
Indian Motorcycle tech @ Polaris Industries, B.A. Information Technology, A.A. Engineering
3 Sprees
1 ATM50-A1
1 Indian AMI-50
World's Greatest Spree: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lU49lL_Xx4s
Want to make a Spree engine go fast? CLICK HERE: LINK

Sevyndaze
Spree
Spree
Posts: 108
Joined: Sun Jun 10, 2018 3:43 pm
Location: New Hampshire

Re: 2001 Elite performance questions

Post by Sevyndaze » Sat Jun 23, 2018 8:33 pm

So I've run into another minor head scratcher. As I was putting everything back together, I was looking over the oil system and at the oil pump in particular, intending to zip-tie it wide open. I noticed that there is a cable that connects to the oil pump. This cable seems to move in sync with the cable connected to the carb when I twist the throttle.

Is this the "Y" cable that opens the oil pump farther with the throttle that is stock on the SR? I'm almost positive my scooter is an Elite S; even more so after rebuilding the carb and finding a #68 jet inside.

Regarding lubrication, should I remove and clean the oil strainer? The scooter has just over 5000 miles on it. If not, is it OK to mix synthetic 2-cycle oil with conventional? The oil currently in the tank is a marine 2-cycle oil, probably the cheapest available. I didn't buy it so I don't know for sure, but it sounds about right for my FIL.
2001 Elite S (Derestricted)
Polini Variator
8g rollers
ZX rear pulley
1k Contra, 4k shoe springs
16/42 Gears

User avatar
Meatball
CB900F
CB900F
Posts: 1710
Joined: Sat Jun 04, 2016 10:45 am
Location: seattle

Re: 2001 Elite performance questions

Post by Meatball » Sun Jun 24, 2018 12:29 am

Check the VIN sticker on the frame tube under the floor panel. In small print it will read ÔÇ£SA50ÔÇØ or ÔÇ£SA50pÔÇØ. This bit of information is helpful but it should be understood that this identifies the frame only. These scooters sometimes change owners many times throughout their life and each owner couldve added/removed or modified any parts. Even if you were to cross check the motor identification number on the rear gear case of the motor...who to say that someone hasn't swapped a gear cover over the years? The best thing to do is to go through every newly acquired scooter to see what parts are on it. Many times youÔÇÖll stumble across shoddy repairs and make-shift band-aid fixes that should be repaired properly.

Checking VINÔÇÖs, tags, serial numbers will tell you what the scooter was equipped with when purchased new. Certainly not what it currently has. For that, ya just have to dig into it.
I need to find some new haters...the ones I have are starting to like me.

Sevyndaze
Spree
Spree
Posts: 108
Joined: Sun Jun 10, 2018 3:43 pm
Location: New Hampshire

Re: 2001 Elite performance questions

Post by Sevyndaze » Sun Jun 24, 2018 1:11 pm

Thanks Meatball. I looked at the sticker and sure enough it said SA50P. I snapped a picture of the throttle cable and of the pump. Is this the Y-type cable from the SR? If so, do I need to do anything to the pump to increase its output now that I've re-jetted and de-restricted the scooter?
Attachments
Throttlecable.JPG
Throttlecable.JPG (189.22 KiB) Viewed 378 times
OilPump.JPG
OilPump.JPG (173.86 KiB) Viewed 378 times
2001 Elite S (Derestricted)
Polini Variator
8g rollers
ZX rear pulley
1k Contra, 4k shoe springs
16/42 Gears

User avatar
bonesv
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 1613
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2011 2:00 pm
Location: Florida

Re: 2001 Elite performance questions

Post by bonesv » Sun Jun 24, 2018 4:47 pm

You can look on the oil pump for the designation either GS7 or GS7V. Just wipe off the area shown in the pic I did. The "S" oil pump has the "GS7V"
The "SR" pump has "GS7"
If you have the "S" pump I remember someone suggesting to add addional oil to the fuel tank at about 100:1 ratio to compensate. You can search the forum for the thread but I'm pretty sure that's what someone had suggested. I would keep the split cable and keep an eye on the spark plug color. :thumbwink:
OilPump notes.jpg
OilPump notes.jpg (100.7 KiB) Viewed 375 times
Honda Elite SR
Honda Dio-Elite SR
Honda Elite LX
Pineapplegti wrote:Ruckus mods should never carry over to vintage scooters......it just isn't kosher.

Sevyndaze
Spree
Spree
Posts: 108
Joined: Sun Jun 10, 2018 3:43 pm
Location: New Hampshire

Re: 2001 Elite performance questions

Post by Sevyndaze » Sun Jun 24, 2018 5:54 pm

I cleaned off the spot and it is the GS7V, so the normal pump for the Elite S. I'll probably just clean the oil strainer and add an ounce or so of oil to the tank when I fill up, unless I don't need to because of the split cable?

I'm excited, its almost ready to ride again!
2001 Elite S (Derestricted)
Polini Variator
8g rollers
ZX rear pulley
1k Contra, 4k shoe springs
16/42 Gears

User avatar
bonesv
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 1613
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2011 2:00 pm
Location: Florida

Re: 2001 Elite performance questions

Post by bonesv » Sun Jun 24, 2018 6:49 pm

Be careful, too much oil is not better. Search the topic if you want to know why.
Honda Elite SR
Honda Dio-Elite SR
Honda Elite LX
Pineapplegti wrote:Ruckus mods should never carry over to vintage scooters......it just isn't kosher.

User avatar
Meatball
CB900F
CB900F
Posts: 1710
Joined: Sat Jun 04, 2016 10:45 am
Location: seattle

Re: 2001 Elite performance questions

Post by Meatball » Sun Jun 24, 2018 6:59 pm

I belive what Bones is saying is that the ÔÇ£SÔÇØ and ÔÇ£SRÔÇØeach came with different unique oil pumps which deliver oil at different rates. That being said, your Y cable operating the pump wont do jack unless its used with the correct pump. If your pump is from an SA50p model and someone simply added the Y cable to it...youd need to mix 100:1 in the tank. If you have the pump from an SA50 (and the Y cable attached)...you do not need additional oil in the tank. Investigate on which pump you have.


Honestly, I dont recall the actual flow rate of each pump nor do I remember if the SA50p oil pump actually had varible flow when a Y cable was added. I seem to have a vague recollection of the swing arm on an SA50p oil pump to have no actual function in any position. I think that pump flows at one rate only. Someone please confirm.
I need to find some new haters...the ones I have are starting to like me.

Sevyndaze
Spree
Spree
Posts: 108
Joined: Sun Jun 10, 2018 3:43 pm
Location: New Hampshire

Re: 2001 Elite performance questions

Post by Sevyndaze » Sun Jun 24, 2018 7:30 pm

Per the info from Bones, after cleaning the plate off I can see it is marked as the GS7V, the "S" pump. I'd love to know for sure if the "Y" cable actually does anything on the "S" pump, that would help me know if I need to add any extra oil to the gas. I know too much oil is not good, but I'd have to imagine it's better than too little.

I could be totally wrong, of course, as I know precisely squat about 2-stroke engines. Thanks again to all of you for helping me learn and avoid doing something dumb. :thumbwink:
2001 Elite S (Derestricted)
Polini Variator
8g rollers
ZX rear pulley
1k Contra, 4k shoe springs
16/42 Gears

Sevyndaze
Spree
Spree
Posts: 108
Joined: Sun Jun 10, 2018 3:43 pm
Location: New Hampshire

Re: 2001 Elite performance questions

Post by Sevyndaze » Sun Jul 01, 2018 2:21 pm

Meatball - Just had a thought. If and attaching a throttle cable to the S oil pump does nothing, wouldn't that mean that zip-tying it wide open would have no effect either? Or does that refer to a different part of the pump?

Reading the wiki, it seems that there is a difference of 5 CC at WOT between full open (12cc/quart) and full close (7cc/quart). The elite SR pump puts one 18cc/quart at WOT, 50% more than the S.

If I'm thinking about this correctly, assuming that the S pump DOES actually change oil flow based on the wiki (and assuming it varies consistently with the SR's output based on the fully open WOT numbers, since I don't have any others), I would want to add an additional 6cc oil per quart or about 0.8 oz/gallon of gas.

I'm no math wiz, does this seem logically reasonable?
2001 Elite S (Derestricted)
Polini Variator
8g rollers
ZX rear pulley
1k Contra, 4k shoe springs
16/42 Gears

User avatar
Meatball
CB900F
CB900F
Posts: 1710
Joined: Sat Jun 04, 2016 10:45 am
Location: seattle

Re: 2001 Elite performance questions

Post by Meatball » Sun Jul 01, 2018 3:29 pm

Logically reasonable is a rather loose term than can be applied to much less reasonable statements than youve made. The flow rates by each different pumps are both within the acceptable mixture range for the stock bore at WOT, says Honda. Overthinking this will certainly drive you mad so keeping it simple is typically my approach. I havent had much experience toying with the pumps since none of my scooters ever stay stock for very long and the pumps get removed. Dont get me wrong, oil injection is absolutely wonderful when operating properly and its great, however, its catastrophic when it fails. If you just follow what others have done for many years and have had success, youÔÇÖll be happily scooting for thousands of carefree miles. If you are anything like ÔÇ£mostÔÇØ of us...your scoot wont stay stock for very long either ;)

40mph is fun...for the first few hundred miles :peace:
I need to find some new haters...the ones I have are starting to like me.

Sevyndaze
Spree
Spree
Posts: 108
Joined: Sun Jun 10, 2018 3:43 pm
Location: New Hampshire

Re: 2001 Elite performance questions

Post by Sevyndaze » Sun Jul 01, 2018 3:51 pm

Heh. I suspect I am very much like "most" of you. It is unusual that any of my vehicles stay stock for very long. :-)

I will add a small amount of oil to the tank (~0.8oz/gal) along with keeping my oil pump...for now. But ditching the oil system and running pre-mix seems to be the way to go as you remove several risk factors for insufficient lubrication. Anyone tried the plugs from Scooter Swap Shop?

I'm trying to get the motor dialed in as best I can for now by unbuggering most of the things the prior owner did. Next stop is variator/clutch/gears.....maaaaybe BBK.
2001 Elite S (Derestricted)
Polini Variator
8g rollers
ZX rear pulley
1k Contra, 4k shoe springs
16/42 Gears

User avatar
Meatball
CB900F
CB900F
Posts: 1710
Joined: Sat Jun 04, 2016 10:45 am
Location: seattle

Re: 2001 Elite performance questions

Post by Meatball » Sun Jul 01, 2018 4:27 pm

The plugs from SSS are the same plugs youÔÇÖll find on other sites. Top quality, perfect fit and nice price. What sets SSS apart from the others is what they are...cool azz dudes that love to ride. You call them with tech questions for what they sell you and THEY HELP YOU OUT. They back up their word and will take care of you. Ive ridden with those dudes and theyre solid, for sure. The only reason I ever shop elsewhere is if Im looking to buy something they dont have.

If you plan to modify someday, its wise to decide your ultimate goal before you begin. There are proven combinations for every goal and you can easily waste gobs of time/money with things that dont work. Stock, Sport and Race are some of the descriptions youÔÇÖll see. Ask questions and read build threads before you use your wallet.
I need to find some new haters...the ones I have are starting to like me.

Sevyndaze
Spree
Spree
Posts: 108
Joined: Sun Jun 10, 2018 3:43 pm
Location: New Hampshire

Re: 2001 Elite performance questions

Post by Sevyndaze » Sun Jul 01, 2018 5:21 pm

I agree, SSS is top notch. I've bought an exhaust gasket, a set of mirrors, and main jet kit for the factory carb from them. Not sure who runs their facebook page but they are usually pretty quick to respond to messages and very helpful. Only things I didn't get from them were a factory air filter (ordered one from noiseguy's ebay store), and a carb gasket set that I was able to get from a local powersports dealer.

I'm gonna see how it runs as-is (still have to ride it around to warm it up so I can tune the carb properly), then see where to go from there. If I end up going all out then I'll definitely be adding a BBK and the appropriate motor/transmission upgrades. I'd love to be able to get to work and back on it.
2001 Elite S (Derestricted)
Polini Variator
8g rollers
ZX rear pulley
1k Contra, 4k shoe springs
16/42 Gears

Post Reply