AF05 Bore Questions

Does your Spree/Elite already run great, and you're trying to make it quicker/faster? Need a monster motor swap? Discuss your ideas here.

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nateberrier
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AF05 Bore Questions

Post by nateberrier » Thu Jul 25, 2019 11:46 am

I know these threads have been run to death, but I had some questions I couldnt easily find the answer to. Going to do a malossi bore kit on an 85 aero

1. I assume I should just disable the oil pump. I wouldnt mind doing a fuel mix and oil pump but it seems like that might not be worth the trouble. What is the mixing ration if using the pump and adding to oil and if you just do premix only? There is likely some argument over that im guessing too, but curious what has worked for people in the past.

2. Can someone give me a starting point for jets if im doing premix or partial premix?

3. I believe intakes are different on the 85 than later models of the Aero, will this cause me issues?

4. I know youre not supposed to beat on the thing when breaking it in, how can I effectively tune/ jet for this if i cant run it hard enough for a plug chop?

5. is stock carb out of the question fro BBK and exhaust? I have found at least two different exhausts for sale that should work on this bike, im sure ill want to break it in before using a pipe but idk when im going to have to give up the stock carb.

6. Will I run lean at idle with my slow jet? these cant be changed on my stock carb. Is that anything to worry about?

7. Do most people replace the top bearing when doing a bbk?

8. Should I run a different plug or is the stock just fine for now?
1986 Aero White -- Af16 Swap + Keli Var + NCY Pipe
1985 Aero Red -- Af05 Malossi BBK + Keli Var
1985 Aero Red -- Parts bike that will be fixed soon

harleyracer59
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Re: AF05 Bore Questions

Post by harleyracer59 » Thu Jul 25, 2019 1:05 pm

#1 you don't have to disable or premix with bbk. I have 1 af05 W/polini bbk on oil pump with a 20mm flatslide mikuni with expansion chamber into connected silencer, 1 af05 W/ metrakit BBK on oil pump, stock carb 98mj. modified fleabay vertical jog expansion chamber w/ turn back silencer, 1 ab07 W/ polini af01/lead50 bbk on pump 21mm OKO 38pilot 135?mj heavily modified horizontal IDK? cut up and welded for a honda vertical and converted to sidebleed. used a cap or 2 of oil in first couple tanks for break in but they have all been pump only for almost a year and longer. I did adjust pumps to max out at wot. but theres only gas in my tanks.... ill have to check jets on flatslide and oko then report back
#3 unless you buy or make an adapter youre stuck with stock carb and manifold
#4i beak in by (2) 20-30min warm ups at idle with a rev here and there. complete cool down between and retorque head, manifold exh. after second cool off. then ill cruise normal with wot use just not wot for longer than 5-10 seconds at a time. ill back off to 1/2 or 3/4 for 5-10 seconds before going wot again. and I check torques again after second ride and cool off. AGAIN this is how I do it, done it for years no problems others do it different. how ever you decide, key thing I feel is to recheck torques at least 2x. cause gaskets squish.
#5 stock carb can be used, stock exhaust, not in my opinion. its too restrictive and restriction can cause excess head on the cylinder. (bad)
#6 ive pulled tubes out before and used a small jet drill to open pilot to next size. Im not sure if the stock carbed bbk has a stock or modified pilot to be honest though
#7 always replace wrist pin bearing when changing top end or piston even... I like to replace crank main bearingsand seals when installing a bbk.
#8 for plugs, I run ngk bp9hs +- heat range depending on compression and outside temp/weather
#9-10 GET A CYLINDER HEAD TEMP GAUGE.. itll save your bbk from soft seizing or worse hard seizing

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nateberrier
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Re: AF05 Bore Questions

Post by nateberrier » Thu Jul 25, 2019 2:16 pm

harleyracer59 wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 1:05 pm
#1 you don't have to disable or premix with bbk. I have 1 af05 W/polini bbk on oil pump with a 20mm flatslide mikuni with expansion chamber into connected silencer, 1 af05 W/ metrakit BBK on oil pump, stock carb 98mj. modified fleabay vertical jog expansion chamber w/ turn back silencer, 1 ab07 W/ polini af01/lead50 bbk on pump 21mm OKO 38pilot 135?mj heavily modified horizontal IDK? cut up and welded for a honda vertical and converted to sidebleed. used a cap or 2 of oil in first couple tanks for break in but they have all been pump only for almost a year and longer. I did adjust pumps to max out at wot. but theres only gas in my tanks.... ill have to check jets on flatslide and oko then report back
#3 unless you buy or make an adapter youre stuck with stock carb and manifold
#4i beak in by (2) 20-30min warm ups at idle with a rev here and there. complete cool down between and retorque head, manifold exh. after second cool off. then ill cruise normal with wot use just not wot for longer than 5-10 seconds at a time. ill back off to 1/2 or 3/4 for 5-10 seconds before going wot again. and I check torques again after second ride and cool off. AGAIN this is how I do it, done it for years no problems others do it different. how ever you decide, key thing I feel is to recheck torques at least 2x. cause gaskets squish.
#5 stock carb can be used, stock exhaust, not in my opinion. its too restrictive and restriction can cause excess head on the cylinder. (bad)
#6 ive pulled tubes out before and used a small jet drill to open pilot to next size. Im not sure if the stock carbed bbk has a stock or modified pilot to be honest though
#7 always replace wrist pin bearing when changing top end or piston even... I like to replace crank main bearingsand seals when installing a bbk.
#8 for plugs, I run ngk bp9hs +- heat range depending on compression and outside temp/weather
#9-10 GET A CYLINDER HEAD TEMP GAUGE.. itll save your bbk from soft seizing or worse hard seizing
I appreciate the help!

I ordered the CHT right after whatever decided to fail on me last time. Not sure if it was a soft seize or if i just lost compression. Wont know till i open it up

Have been debating on buying the malossi head too, not sure if its worth the cost.

I found a technigass and MLM pipe for AF05. technigas is 75 bucks cheaper tho.

Ive heard needing a few 100 miles of break in at no more than 3/4 throttle too im sure there's debate on that also. Ive always flogged on new cars and they turned out fine :rock:

Also I dont think there is anywhere on the 85 that i can adjust the oil pump, at least it doesnt have a throttle cable on it :roll:

If you have tips for adjusting oil pump i will take any and all. I bought some royal purple to try out

I was hoping to not have to split the case and just replace the top end. dunno if thats reasonable to expect or not?
1986 Aero White -- Af16 Swap + Keli Var + NCY Pipe
1985 Aero Red -- Af05 Malossi BBK + Keli Var
1985 Aero Red -- Parts bike that will be fixed soon

harleyracer59
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Re: AF05 Bore Questions

Post by harleyracer59 » Thu Jul 25, 2019 8:59 pm

I think you need to do some studying before you purchase a pipe. theres a lot more to a pipe than just sex appeal. ive learned a lot about expansion cambers from 190mech on the other forum. and I still have ALOT to learn about them.. hes done a lot of write ups on the subject from design to fabricating, I suggest you check it out before your pipe purchase.
as for break in procedure, I think theres more than one correct way to skin that cat... a M/C engine builder explained it to me as it should be broken in as its plan to be ridden. but like a young lady, you take it a little easy at first. lol the idle time lays the foundation, the heat cycles expands and contracts everything checking torque periodically maintains the sealing surfaces.
I will say this CAUTION fresh cylinders have no oil worked into them and are easier to seize or theyre more tempermental to tune. if you run it lean at any point for first couple tanks, itll heat up seize and let you know its not happy. so always error on the rich side. and premixing any amount of oil and gas that's going through the carb leans out the mixture. so upjet while premixing.
as to your pump question: replace your pump from an 86+ engine, and run a split cable. I don't think your pump is adjustable, and I don't know its flow rates. similar to oil pump swap on 93-94 eliteS.
putting a kit on a fresh or tired bottom end is asking it to fail faster. its the nature of the beast more power=more stress I feel a lot better asking a 30+ year old motor to spin faster harder higher on new bearings and seal for obvious reasons. 20$ in parts 2-4 more hours of work can likely save you money and time in the long run. so I leave it at that, its ultimately up to you.... and always have fun!!!

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Meatball
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Re: AF05 Bore Questions

Post by Meatball » Thu Jul 25, 2019 11:45 pm

Swap in a dio...ditch the 05
I need to find some new haters...the ones I have are starting to like me.

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Re: AF05 Bore Questions

Post by harleyracer59 » Fri Jul 26, 2019 2:31 am

instead of listening to the dio *, lets take a quote from his past, a time when he was humbler:
Re: Fastest Af05e Engine

Quote

Post
by Meatball » Sat Mar 11, 2017 11:16 pm
The variated af05 is a great motor. I have a stock 87' Elite motor in a Spree and it rips compared to the Spree motor. Only thing not stock on it is a pod filter to fit the plastics on and a #90 main, that's it! Total cost of those changes was a whopping $20 total. Sure, its not a Dio swap with crazy 70mph speeds but it does 40mph and jumps out of the hole pretty hard, always leaving the car behind me at the red light in the dust. I bought the motor for about $100 and put $30 into it for filter, plug and gaskets.

Don't want to turn this into an af05 vs af16 debate. Both are great motors that respond well to modifications. Depending on availability in your area, price, condition, goals of build, riding style, etc....So many variables to take into account when deciding on which Motor is "best" FOR YOU.

Theres some guys that only want to do 40mph and they love it forever. Some folks are happy with a stock Spree and ride thousands of carefree miles at 25-30mph. Others want 70mph with wheelie power. Which motor is BEST??? All the motors are great in their own way but...it all depends who you ask.

Midnight ramble over.

hey meatball, did you ever get that af05 tuned and running proper? or is that why you just throw a dio at them now? lol :2thumbs:

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Re: AF05 Bore Questions

Post by eclark5483 » Fri Jul 26, 2019 3:08 am

:peace:

Oh pokes at Meatball!!

:lol: :lol: OK, maybe he needs it just a bit. Sprees are a bit tricky though, credit to meatball where it is due. Everyone is always learning and that's a good thing. I'm happy with both of mine, though the speed/thrill factor has never been there for me given I ride/build motorcycles unless you count being scared out of your mind at 45+ miles an hour on such tiny tires and inadequate brakes!! The BBK's have gotten a bad wrap, and I hate to say it, sometimes Brandon talks about them as being worse then what they actually are. Sure there were probably a couple bad batches and cheap design flaws, but they have been pretty solid performers as of late with the Taiwan sourcing. I see a seller in Taiwan decided to get in on that action on eBay as well. Honestly, can't say I blame him, global competition is always great in my eyes. I'm always scouring for Japanese and the like for products floating around. All I know, is if I do up the other Spree in the garage with a BBK, I'm sending the whole shebang to Joe Daniels, block and all, for porting. Will probably go with a 19mm Polini after that is done.

That one is a relatively low mileage block with solid crank, so when Joe splits it and puts it back together, it won't have as much wear time on it already to worry about.

As for my VARIATED AF05, sold that to Benjie, and he's got it runnin pretty mean, did a swap into his Spree. Can't remember what kit he used right off hand.
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Re: AF05 Bore Questions

Post by nateberrier » Fri Jul 26, 2019 9:07 am

I dont wanna sound like all i care about in regards to the exhaust are looks, but if the MLM Techno sticks out 2ft in the air, im gonna have trouble parking it in the garage. Leo Vince from Europe or Technigas from Canada still seems viable and at the end of the day id be happy with any pipe that offers more flow than stock.

I pulled the motor on my scoot and took the heat shroud off. Seems like there was some animal trying to nest in the engine cover at some point and thats probably why it overheated.

I dont think it ever seized up, but did lose compression, so I figure its a good learning experience / project to put a BBK and a pipe on it and get some power at the same time.

I dont care if it doesnt go above 50mph. Honestly I dont think these scoots are safe at that speed. Extra off the line power and getting to 45 faster are worth 200 bucks to me. If someone can find me a good A16 and stock exhaust for that price ill send it to you via paypal.

My only real concern right now is the slow jet and if it will be a big problem at idle
1986 Aero White -- Af16 Swap + Keli Var + NCY Pipe
1985 Aero Red -- Af05 Malossi BBK + Keli Var
1985 Aero Red -- Parts bike that will be fixed soon

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Re: AF05 Bore Questions

Post by Wheelman-111 » Fri Jul 26, 2019 10:15 am

Greetings:

The SE05 modified to 65cc can easily exceed 50 and even approach 60 in my direct experience with the Leovince SP4 - kit #4447, manifold adaptor tall Malossi primaries a 21-24mm carb. This is my direct experience. Limited RPM will keep top speed in the 40s with Stock gears, but expect killer acceleration with them. Kitting out your 05 is still cheaper than buying and adapting a 16 to your frame and then having to kit THAT. I for one look forward to seeing how it comes out.
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nateberrier
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Re: AF05 Bore Questions

Post by nateberrier » Fri Jul 26, 2019 1:35 pm

I had read that you can pretty much bolt up the AF16 to the Aero, but I could be wrong, that said Im looking to do a BBK and maybe pipe then stop. Im guessing ill need a carb now or soon which is also stressing me out but im sure ill have it researched out, just need something with adjustable slow jets?
1986 Aero White -- Af16 Swap + Keli Var + NCY Pipe
1985 Aero Red -- Af05 Malossi BBK + Keli Var
1985 Aero Red -- Parts bike that will be fixed soon

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nateberrier
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Re: AF05 Bore Questions

Post by nateberrier » Fri Jul 26, 2019 3:10 pm

I keep going back and forth between shelling out for a carb and trying to drill the pilot out. Does anyone have any recommendations
http://hondaspree.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=21448
1986 Aero White -- Af16 Swap + Keli Var + NCY Pipe
1985 Aero Red -- Af05 Malossi BBK + Keli Var
1985 Aero Red -- Parts bike that will be fixed soon

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