I have been recently upgrading my Honda SR50. Going thru a Polini Corsa Cylinder change. Just tore down the gearbox and redoing that and I found something interesting.
I took apart my speed variator to clean it out. Had a few light rub marks from the belt. The rollers had more flat spots than I can count. Figured, heck, just buy a new Keli Preformance Speed Variator, now is the time. So I ordered one that promises better fuel economy and an increase of 4 to 6 mph.
Well I got it in. First, doesn't come with a new ramp, gotta reuse the old one. Doesn't come with a new bushing where the belt and the variator rides on, gotta use the old one. So what does it come with?
6 each new 9 gram rollers and the housing. yup. Well, its a preformance housing, gotta be bigger to get the belt up higher right? Well, nope, same diameter of the stock unit. Infact, even if it was a larger diameter, it wouldn't fit in the Elite SR! So, gotta have something different right? After all its a preformance pully? The angle as to be different right? Nope, angle is the same, fact is it can't be different or it won't mesh/seat with the belt correctly as the other drive face, the starter gear drive face plate angle has to be same with the pully. So, how do they get an extra 4 to 6 mph then? They don't, they get it only if your unit is worn, or rollers have flat spots and you lost the speed due to this. What you are getting is the original speed that was lost due to wear.
If your speed variators drive face is not scared or eaten up, here is some advice, clean it good, replace the rollers and maybe the 3 Ramp guide plastic bushings, thats it, your done. Don't think this $45 Preformance unit is any different than the stock one, its the same and anyone says differently is BS'in you. Now, on another scooter, it can be possible, on the Honda 1999 Elite, a larger diameter one just won't fit to to clearance issues with the transmission case.
I have digital pics of both Variators installed and you can see the diameter is the same, so no taller gear, no free speed increase.
If you doubt me, PM me ur email and I will send pictures. I am learning as I go about these Elites and some things are not worth the money, the cylinder was, the muffler is, the speed variator, if its not worn, save the money and get just a complete roller weight set for $14.99 on ebay.
Pete
Preformance Speed Variator is BS on Elite SR50
Moderator: Moderator
Preformance Speed Variator is BS on Elite SR50
Last edited by itzmepete on Fri Mar 14, 2008 9:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
-
Kenny_McCormic
- CBR1000RR
- Posts: 4957
- Joined: Sun Apr 16, 2006 11:51 am
- Location: Southern Michigan
Yeah, the weights are nice but everything NEW is always nice. The housing is the same deal, I mean like if I bead balsted my old one, it would look about the same. Same weight, same material, everything is the same. The 3 pins where the ramp slides on ARE a little longer BUT there is no way for the ramp to travel that far back. The manufacturer of this speed variator is Keli. You figure for $45, you would get at least a new ramp and or shaft bushing. I went over the unit very closely today, there is NO WAY it will make the belt run higher up, unless you have heavier weights and you could just replace the stock weights with heavier ones. Basically, same deal. There is no magic variator for the Honda Elite. No way to fit a larger diameter Variator, which is teh only way to get it to go faster, period. On top of that, if you did get the belt to go higher, you would need a longer belt as I am sure it already is pretty much bottomed out on the rear pulley. So, the ONLY magic deal on a Honda Elite in the sense of the speed variator is to remove the back travel limiter plate, if it has one. Period!
Yeah, this one uses no grease but neither does my stock one. Maual says to apply a thin coat of lube on certain years only. I wouldn't, lube will just make the dust stick to the inside of the housing and ramp.
Yeah, this one uses no grease but neither does my stock one. Maual says to apply a thin coat of lube on certain years only. I wouldn't, lube will just make the dust stick to the inside of the housing and ramp.
you are sure making alot of assumptions about something you dont have any clue about. you think these are cheap? 45 is really cheap, i spent 125 for mine, yes there is a bigger one you can fit, you dont know much past what you see on ebay, so you cant make much assumptions. The kelly is that type, in the description, if you read it says you reuse you guides and backplate, those ramp extensions do make a diff, a stock ramp running all 7 gram weights the bike goes 37mph, with the kelly, same amount weights goes 42, i tested it, my bikes are flawless. the best vari out there in my opinion is the daytona matched with a #2 backplate. you cant get them on ebay, you have to get them from shops down there, which means call them, the sites are always old. so what do you expect for 45? you after reading your posts you seem to have a strange dissolution that this is a cheap thing to do, these are handmade parts made for mopeds, they are not mass produced, so they are expensive. I have over 1000 dollars in my elite, and it is all worth it. i have been with this site for over 4 years, i have over 3000 posts, and i have tried or used most parts out there. and after reading your posts, i say get a shoot shiny coil, you bike will have better throttle response, easier start, and it looks cool.
I am not making any assumtions. I am no Honda mechanic, but I am far from stupid. I do have a FAA A&P aircraft mechanic, I read and understand anything mechanical. This scooter is a toy comapred to anything aviation. Really not much to it actually I was surprised once I tore it apart. I think the hardest part would be spliting the case. Everything else is really basic and straight forward.
Why yes, a different ramp, weights WILL make a speed variator respond differently and preform differently by varing when and how much the Variator opens and closes. It STILL does't change the fact that the belt can only ride so high on the speed variator housing, PERIOD. There are many factors that can prevent a belt from riding HIGH up on the variator. Heavy weights will PUSH the ramp out and help push the belt higher but IT still doesn't change the fact that the belt can only Ride so high up on the Variator. While I did say that some Variators are made in a larger diameter such as for a Yamaha Jog I believe, on the Honda Elite, or let me be more specific 1999 Honda SR 50, You can't get it much bigger if that because it will RUB on the metal transmission case divder that sperates the starter bendix. Also, don't fool yourself, non of these are hand made. This is a cast piece which is later spun machined where the belt rides. The center brass bushing is machine made, I highly doubt someone sits there locking this bushing in place by hand in todays automated world. Not much is hand made anymore, thats BS to make something sound exotic. Hand porting a cylinder yeah, but I am sure it can be done robotically as well, probably better. I know a Mazak CNC can make anything once programmed all day long 24x7. With countries like China and Mexico renting these machines by the hour at as low as $35 an hour, anyone can rent it for a day and make a run of the same parts non stop. I don't know other bikes, but on my elite, nope, I know what I know and I am not some 18 year old kid working on his scooter. I never make an assumtion. To do so is to assume and we know what happens when we assume! Shoot me your email or show me how to post the pics here and I can show you.
I just don't think its fair for someone to say this will give you that in selling something when it clearly doesn't. You can get any two variators, one being stock and one being any other brand, add the SAME weights to them and all being the same, same ramps, I guarantee you the top speed will be the SAME, again, for my 1999 Honda elite. Basically if the diameter is the same, there won't be any difference regradless of the application. Lighter weights will keep the variator from fully expanding keeping the belt from going all the way up but giving quick acceleration, heavier weights help push it to its maximum travel. I am not here for a * match. I am a mechanic and make a living doing so, I just don't think its fair to say something that isn't so, most newbie posts here are "What can I do to make my Elite run faster cheap". If someone spent hundreds of dollars on a Honda Elite Variator, they threw there money away, plain and simple. Money well spent on this is money spent on big bore, muffler and gears, Carb if you want even more power. I standby my post. I just think there are alot of guys or post such as mine when I first joined asking whats the cheapest way to increase speed, a variator is not unless its worn out by the belt. Cleaning it out, new 9 gram rollers and rear plate slider bushings will be fine.
You stated your bike does 37 MPH with 7 gram weights and 42 mph with the same weight and the Kelli Variator backplate. Several factors hamper the front pully Speed Variator from opening and closing. The weights better yet the amount of weight, the ramp angle, the amount of stiffness tension that the rear drive clutch center spring has, the rpm of the engine, the riders weight. Obviously the Kelli rear ramp has a different angle. I never said that it didn't from that of a stock one. 7 gram weights are not enough for a stock variator set up unless the engine is reving much higher than stock (Modified) thus more centrifugal force on the 7 gram weights making them push harder, thats why your speed was slower. Different weights for different reasons. If I had a stock engine that turns 7000 rpms, and I was using 8.5 gram weights and the belt was riding at max at 7000 rpm, now I redo my engine and it runs 10,000 rpm, Obviously it makes no sense to have my belt reach max height on my speed variator at 7000 rpm, so I would decrease the weights in my variator, this will give me better acceleration and I would play with the weight to get full belt travel before I hit my new max rpm or peak torque.
In the end, the BELT can not travel higher than the size of the variator PERIOD. From looking at the clearance, I doubt, well maybe , just maybe, a variator can be made say a few mm wider. Not much room there unless you remove the electric starter bendix, machine the case and use kick start and also, you would need a longer belt as the stock one would be too short. I'd be more than happy to send you a pic.
Yeah, modified Ignition do make a difference by reworking your timing spark and a stronger coil also. But when you redo your timing, you also make it run hotter as well, nothing comes for free and without a price.
$125 for a variator? Heck no, I would redo a stock one with new weights, that will get you the same preformance even with the stock ramps. Different ramps are like different weights. In the end, the variator will travel in and out the same distance is what I am trying to say. Different ramps and weights limits that travel. I have a stock rear ramp and weights from the looks on my variator, my belt was running almost at the top, if not the top. 7 Grams for a stock backplate was not enough weight, I'd be willing to bet that if you had higher weights for the stock ramp, you would have increased your top speed. Infact, I can run my scooter, when I get it all back together, with both the Kelli brand and the OLD stock brand, just new weights, same one the Jelli came with and can then say for sure the top speed will be the same.
Yes a new stronger coil is a plus, a different CDI, nah, if I were into racing probably but for a street rider, I don't want the extra heat from the advanced timing. I will be using it for 20 to 30 mile trips at times more.
I was told, not sure if its true, that the Honda CDI's are NOT restricted, that the preformance ones only preform better because they advance the timing where the stock ones don't. I am not a racer, I don't have acess to a motor that I know runs at XXXXX speed where I can try them both and see, but I do know I don't want to run the motor hotter with advance timing.
Why yes, a different ramp, weights WILL make a speed variator respond differently and preform differently by varing when and how much the Variator opens and closes. It STILL does't change the fact that the belt can only ride so high on the speed variator housing, PERIOD. There are many factors that can prevent a belt from riding HIGH up on the variator. Heavy weights will PUSH the ramp out and help push the belt higher but IT still doesn't change the fact that the belt can only Ride so high up on the Variator. While I did say that some Variators are made in a larger diameter such as for a Yamaha Jog I believe, on the Honda Elite, or let me be more specific 1999 Honda SR 50, You can't get it much bigger if that because it will RUB on the metal transmission case divder that sperates the starter bendix. Also, don't fool yourself, non of these are hand made. This is a cast piece which is later spun machined where the belt rides. The center brass bushing is machine made, I highly doubt someone sits there locking this bushing in place by hand in todays automated world. Not much is hand made anymore, thats BS to make something sound exotic. Hand porting a cylinder yeah, but I am sure it can be done robotically as well, probably better. I know a Mazak CNC can make anything once programmed all day long 24x7. With countries like China and Mexico renting these machines by the hour at as low as $35 an hour, anyone can rent it for a day and make a run of the same parts non stop. I don't know other bikes, but on my elite, nope, I know what I know and I am not some 18 year old kid working on his scooter. I never make an assumtion. To do so is to assume and we know what happens when we assume! Shoot me your email or show me how to post the pics here and I can show you.
I just don't think its fair for someone to say this will give you that in selling something when it clearly doesn't. You can get any two variators, one being stock and one being any other brand, add the SAME weights to them and all being the same, same ramps, I guarantee you the top speed will be the SAME, again, for my 1999 Honda elite. Basically if the diameter is the same, there won't be any difference regradless of the application. Lighter weights will keep the variator from fully expanding keeping the belt from going all the way up but giving quick acceleration, heavier weights help push it to its maximum travel. I am not here for a * match. I am a mechanic and make a living doing so, I just don't think its fair to say something that isn't so, most newbie posts here are "What can I do to make my Elite run faster cheap". If someone spent hundreds of dollars on a Honda Elite Variator, they threw there money away, plain and simple. Money well spent on this is money spent on big bore, muffler and gears, Carb if you want even more power. I standby my post. I just think there are alot of guys or post such as mine when I first joined asking whats the cheapest way to increase speed, a variator is not unless its worn out by the belt. Cleaning it out, new 9 gram rollers and rear plate slider bushings will be fine.
You stated your bike does 37 MPH with 7 gram weights and 42 mph with the same weight and the Kelli Variator backplate. Several factors hamper the front pully Speed Variator from opening and closing. The weights better yet the amount of weight, the ramp angle, the amount of stiffness tension that the rear drive clutch center spring has, the rpm of the engine, the riders weight. Obviously the Kelli rear ramp has a different angle. I never said that it didn't from that of a stock one. 7 gram weights are not enough for a stock variator set up unless the engine is reving much higher than stock (Modified) thus more centrifugal force on the 7 gram weights making them push harder, thats why your speed was slower. Different weights for different reasons. If I had a stock engine that turns 7000 rpms, and I was using 8.5 gram weights and the belt was riding at max at 7000 rpm, now I redo my engine and it runs 10,000 rpm, Obviously it makes no sense to have my belt reach max height on my speed variator at 7000 rpm, so I would decrease the weights in my variator, this will give me better acceleration and I would play with the weight to get full belt travel before I hit my new max rpm or peak torque.
In the end, the BELT can not travel higher than the size of the variator PERIOD. From looking at the clearance, I doubt, well maybe , just maybe, a variator can be made say a few mm wider. Not much room there unless you remove the electric starter bendix, machine the case and use kick start and also, you would need a longer belt as the stock one would be too short. I'd be more than happy to send you a pic.
Yeah, modified Ignition do make a difference by reworking your timing spark and a stronger coil also. But when you redo your timing, you also make it run hotter as well, nothing comes for free and without a price.
$125 for a variator? Heck no, I would redo a stock one with new weights, that will get you the same preformance even with the stock ramps. Different ramps are like different weights. In the end, the variator will travel in and out the same distance is what I am trying to say. Different ramps and weights limits that travel. I have a stock rear ramp and weights from the looks on my variator, my belt was running almost at the top, if not the top. 7 Grams for a stock backplate was not enough weight, I'd be willing to bet that if you had higher weights for the stock ramp, you would have increased your top speed. Infact, I can run my scooter, when I get it all back together, with both the Kelli brand and the OLD stock brand, just new weights, same one the Jelli came with and can then say for sure the top speed will be the same.
Yes a new stronger coil is a plus, a different CDI, nah, if I were into racing probably but for a street rider, I don't want the extra heat from the advanced timing. I will be using it for 20 to 30 mile trips at times more.
I was told, not sure if its true, that the Honda CDI's are NOT restricted, that the preformance ones only preform better because they advance the timing where the stock ones don't. I am not a racer, I don't have acess to a motor that I know runs at XXXXX speed where I can try them both and see, but I do know I don't want to run the motor hotter with advance timing.
The cdi is *, it does nothing, but just as you stand by what you said, i stand by what i said, they make a diff, YES people do machine there cases for bigger varis its no big deal, just a grinder. the belt can ride higher, now, with a bigger vari you will not need a bigger belt because of the clutch, it has 2 variating plates controlled by a spring, it will auto set itself.
i guess i am not quite able to follow this too good.. or understand it i guess. i have a decent looking variator on both the elites i picked up and the rear pully is looking good too. i want ahead and got a couple oko hispeed pulleys, 10% contra springs,the tiwan oem clutch and some polini springs for clutch. so if i were to just put on a little stonger spring
on the stock clutch i would have had the same thing for performance and if i had run the stock variator with proper rollers i cojuld have put that moneyu in to the gas tank instead and had the same result? yeah and add new belt the one on the 97 even smells burnt. the 2000 is a great runner pure stock on a gps its 42 the 97 of course the rollers were worn and the craop in the varator was think and nasty and i know it would hold the roolers up it went 38 gps speed. plus belt was smoked. what about the ramp plates we get with the new variator. its suposed to be the cats meow for giving us speed? anyway its interesting to read.
on the stock clutch i would have had the same thing for performance and if i had run the stock variator with proper rollers i cojuld have put that moneyu in to the gas tank instead and had the same result? yeah and add new belt the one on the 97 even smells burnt. the 2000 is a great runner pure stock on a gps its 42 the 97 of course the rollers were worn and the craop in the varator was think and nasty and i know it would hold the roolers up it went 38 gps speed. plus belt was smoked. what about the ramp plates we get with the new variator. its suposed to be the cats meow for giving us speed? anyway its interesting to read.
itzmepete wrote:I am not making any assumtions. I am no Honda mechanic, but I am far from stupid. I do have a FAA A&P aircraft mechanic, I read and understand anything mechanical. This scooter is a toy comapred to anything aviation. Really not much to it actually I was surprised once I tore it apart. I think the hardest part would be spliting the case. Everything else is really basic and straight forward.
Why yes, a different ramp, weights WILL make a speed variator respond differently and preform differently by varing when and how much the Variator opens and closes. It STILL does't change the fact that the belt can only ride so high on the speed variator housing, PERIOD. There are many factors that can prevent a belt from riding HIGH up on the variator. Heavy weights will PUSH the ramp out and help push the belt higher but IT still doesn't change the fact that the belt can only Ride so high up on the Variator. While I did say that some Variators are made in a larger diameter such as for a Yamaha Jog I believe, on the Honda Elite, or let me be more specific 1999 Honda SR 50, You can't get it much bigger if that because it will RUB on the metal transmission case divder that sperates the starter bendix. Also, don't fool yourself, non of these are hand made. This is a cast piece which is later spun machined where the belt rides. The center brass bushing is machine made, I highly doubt someone sits there locking this bushing in place by hand in todays automated world. Not much is hand made anymore, thats BS to make something sound exotic. Hand porting a cylinder yeah, but I am sure it can be done robotically as well, probably better. I know a Mazak CNC can make anything once programmed all day long 24x7. With countries like China and Mexico renting these machines by the hour at as low as $35 an hour, anyone can rent it for a day and make a run of the same parts non stop. I don't know other bikes, but on my elite, nope, I know what I know and I am not some 18 year old kid working on his scooter. I never make an assumtion. To do so is to assume and we know what happens when we assume! Shoot me your email or show me how to post the pics here and I can show you.
I just don't think its fair for someone to say this will give you that in selling something when it clearly doesn't. You can get any two variators, one being stock and one being any other brand, add the SAME weights to them and all being the same, same ramps, I guarantee you the top speed will be the SAME, again, for my 1999 Honda elite. Basically if the diameter is the same, there won't be any difference regradless of the application. Lighter weights will keep the variator from fully expanding keeping the belt from going all the way up but giving quick acceleration, heavier weights help push it to its maximum travel. I am not here for a * match. I am a mechanic and make a living doing so, I just don't think its fair to say something that isn't so, most newbie posts here are "What can I do to make my Elite run faster cheap". If someone spent hundreds of dollars on a Honda Elite Variator, they threw there money away, plain and simple. Money well spent on this is money spent on big bore, muffler and gears, Carb if you want even more power. I standby my post. I just think there are alot of guys or post such as mine when I first joined asking whats the cheapest way to increase speed, a variator is not unless its worn out by the belt. Cleaning it out, new 9 gram rollers and rear plate slider bushings will be fine.
You stated your bike does 37 MPH with 7 gram weights and 42 mph with the same weight and the Kelli Variator backplate. Several factors hamper the front pully Speed Variator from opening and closing. The weights better yet the amount of weight, the ramp angle, the amount of stiffness tension that the rear drive clutch center spring has, the rpm of the engine, the riders weight. Obviously the Kelli rear ramp has a different angle. I never said that it didn't from that of a stock one. 7 gram weights are not enough for a stock variator set up unless the engine is reving much higher than stock (Modified) thus more centrifugal force on the 7 gram weights making them push harder, thats why your speed was slower. Different weights for different reasons. If I had a stock engine that turns 7000 rpms, and I was using 8.5 gram weights and the belt was riding at max at 7000 rpm, now I redo my engine and it runs 10,000 rpm, Obviously it makes no sense to have my belt reach max height on my speed variator at 7000 rpm, so I would decrease the weights in my variator, this will give me better acceleration and I would play with the weight to get full belt travel before I hit my new max rpm or peak torque.
In the end, the BELT can not travel higher than the size of the variator PERIOD. From looking at the clearance, I doubt, well maybe , just maybe, a variator can be made say a few mm wider. Not much room there unless you remove the electric starter bendix, machine the case and use kick start and also, you would need a longer belt as the stock one would be too short. I'd be more than happy to send you a pic.
Yeah, modified Ignition do make a difference by reworking your timing spark and a stronger coil also. But when you redo your timing, you also make it run hotter as well, nothing comes for free and without a price.
$125 for a variator? Heck no, I would redo a stock one with new weights, that will get you the same preformance even with the stock ramps. Different ramps are like different weights. In the end, the variator will travel in and out the same distance is what I am trying to say. Different ramps and weights limits that travel. I have a stock rear ramp and weights from the looks on my variator, my belt was running almost at the top, if not the top. 7 Grams for a stock backplate was not enough weight, I'd be willing to bet that if you had higher weights for the stock ramp, you would have increased your top speed. Infact, I can run my scooter, when I get it all back together, with both the Kelli brand and the OLD stock brand, just new weights, same one the Jelli came with and can then say for sure the top speed will be the same.
Yes a new stronger coil is a plus, a different CDI, nah, if I were into racing probably but for a street rider, I don't want the extra heat from the advanced timing. I will be using it for 20 to 30 mile trips at times more.
I was told, not sure if its true, that the Honda CDI's are NOT restricted, that the preformance ones only preform better because they advance the timing where the stock ones don't. I am not a racer, I don't have acess to a motor that I know runs at XXXXX speed where I can try them both and see, but I do know I don't want to run the motor hotter with advance timing.
Happyman,
The stiffer clutch springs helps engine rev more, delays clutch engagement, kinda like a stall converter on an auto transmission so when it does engage, you shoot off faster, no arguement there. A stiffer clutch center springs keeps the rear pulley together longer so you are in low gear longer for better take off, no argument there either. If thats what you want to get, a faster launch, money well spent. My Kelli Preformance Variator did not come with a rear Plate but I have seen some on ebay and other scooter preformance website that do come with a rear ramp plate. If mine came with a few different rear plates and weights, I would buy into the preformance deal as it could be tuned, But it came with same 9 gram weights and same Vari dia housing. I feel Preformance and the promise of extra speed was wrong here.
From what I have just learned, you would have been better off cleaning your stock variator, Clean off all that used burned rubber, and the inside of the case, buying new 9 gram rollers, better yet an extensive assorted roller kit, and a new stock belt maybe a new rear ramp but for stock engines, I think the OEM is fine. I posted my variator findings on another thread on this forum. I should have posted it on this thread after all I started it and said a preformance variator was BS. So go here
http://www.hondaspree.net/phpBB2/viewto ... highlight=
But I will post it here as well as this is the Variator thread. So here goes
ok, New and old variator. Both connected together with the bushing inserted in the middle. Both same diameter which means same top speed. Both same angles. Inside where the rollers ride, the ramps look identical, it came with no rear plate. Yes tuning is key but its the rear ramps and weights that "tune" and both can be used on the stock Variator. I see nothing on this NEW Preformance variator that says it will preform better than a stock one.
Next pic shows clearance issues. Yes, I agree, if you can machine it and install a larger Variator then yes, more top speed but say goodby to the electric starter. Both had same distance from case. The preformance weights that came with the Variator were 9 grams, when compared to the Stock oem weights, they were about the same.
Last is a Final drive gear set I purchased from Taiwan, a mistake. Spline gears were not machined correctly, flat. Although it can be pressed fit by hand, I dared not use it as it did not have full teeth contact and would probably fail with use, especially with a big bore kit and the extra power. Lucky for me Daywot had a set of 8:44 to 1 gears, last one as VT was out also, that he sent me really fast!
Final word on Variator, if its not chewed up, clean it good, invest in a new belt and a roller weight set, an extensive one as these things go thru rollers, maybe a rear ramp or two. I think the stock Variator is fine. Extensive "Tuning" is only needed when you modify the engine and change its power output, power curve drastically such as a bore kit, carb etc. Oh, I purchased a Polini Kevlar belt. I did hear afterwards from someone knowledgable that although strong as *, they do tend to eat into the Variators surface more than a stock belt cuz the kevlar is so strong. Maybe I should have just gotten a regular belt but anyway, I guess a Polini will be fine for everyday riding and long life. If I dog it as in racing, I can see it eat the variator, mine will be a commuter so it won't be reved up and down as in racing. Just a thought, in any event, I can always buy a new "Preformance Variator for $45" if the belt does eat it up! Thats me poking fun now as this post stirred the pot a bit! But I think it will be many years before that happens the way I ride.
One last note, just something for thought, even IF you machined the case for a larger Variator, the Variator CAN NOT be larger than the rear clutch pulley or the belt will have no where to go when it speeds down and get slack. In an easier way to try and explain it. Think of the front variator and the rear pulley as two glasses of the same size. One is full of water, while the other is empty, water being the belt, now transfer the water back and forth over and overand its ok. Now replace the left glass with one twice as large, transfer the water, it won't go up to the top cuz the glass is larger, so we fill it with more water, a larger belt, now the larger glass is full again, now tranfer it back to the other glass, the glass overflows. In other words, a much larger Variator when it speeds down, the belt works its way to its smallest portion, same as a stock unit and the rear clutch has to pick up all that extra belt slack. This is cuz I was told that larger Vari can be installed, in theory Yes, now if its larger than the rear clutch pulley, I have a hard time seeing how that would work. I did not measure the rear dia of the clutch pulley.
The stiffer clutch springs helps engine rev more, delays clutch engagement, kinda like a stall converter on an auto transmission so when it does engage, you shoot off faster, no arguement there. A stiffer clutch center springs keeps the rear pulley together longer so you are in low gear longer for better take off, no argument there either. If thats what you want to get, a faster launch, money well spent. My Kelli Preformance Variator did not come with a rear Plate but I have seen some on ebay and other scooter preformance website that do come with a rear ramp plate. If mine came with a few different rear plates and weights, I would buy into the preformance deal as it could be tuned, But it came with same 9 gram weights and same Vari dia housing. I feel Preformance and the promise of extra speed was wrong here.
From what I have just learned, you would have been better off cleaning your stock variator, Clean off all that used burned rubber, and the inside of the case, buying new 9 gram rollers, better yet an extensive assorted roller kit, and a new stock belt maybe a new rear ramp but for stock engines, I think the OEM is fine. I posted my variator findings on another thread on this forum. I should have posted it on this thread after all I started it and said a preformance variator was BS. So go here
http://www.hondaspree.net/phpBB2/viewto ... highlight=
But I will post it here as well as this is the Variator thread. So here goes
ok, New and old variator. Both connected together with the bushing inserted in the middle. Both same diameter which means same top speed. Both same angles. Inside where the rollers ride, the ramps look identical, it came with no rear plate. Yes tuning is key but its the rear ramps and weights that "tune" and both can be used on the stock Variator. I see nothing on this NEW Preformance variator that says it will preform better than a stock one.
Next pic shows clearance issues. Yes, I agree, if you can machine it and install a larger Variator then yes, more top speed but say goodby to the electric starter. Both had same distance from case. The preformance weights that came with the Variator were 9 grams, when compared to the Stock oem weights, they were about the same.
Last is a Final drive gear set I purchased from Taiwan, a mistake. Spline gears were not machined correctly, flat. Although it can be pressed fit by hand, I dared not use it as it did not have full teeth contact and would probably fail with use, especially with a big bore kit and the extra power. Lucky for me Daywot had a set of 8:44 to 1 gears, last one as VT was out also, that he sent me really fast!
Final word on Variator, if its not chewed up, clean it good, invest in a new belt and a roller weight set, an extensive one as these things go thru rollers, maybe a rear ramp or two. I think the stock Variator is fine. Extensive "Tuning" is only needed when you modify the engine and change its power output, power curve drastically such as a bore kit, carb etc. Oh, I purchased a Polini Kevlar belt. I did hear afterwards from someone knowledgable that although strong as *, they do tend to eat into the Variators surface more than a stock belt cuz the kevlar is so strong. Maybe I should have just gotten a regular belt but anyway, I guess a Polini will be fine for everyday riding and long life. If I dog it as in racing, I can see it eat the variator, mine will be a commuter so it won't be reved up and down as in racing. Just a thought, in any event, I can always buy a new "Preformance Variator for $45" if the belt does eat it up! Thats me poking fun now as this post stirred the pot a bit! But I think it will be many years before that happens the way I ride.
One last note, just something for thought, even IF you machined the case for a larger Variator, the Variator CAN NOT be larger than the rear clutch pulley or the belt will have no where to go when it speeds down and get slack. In an easier way to try and explain it. Think of the front variator and the rear pulley as two glasses of the same size. One is full of water, while the other is empty, water being the belt, now transfer the water back and forth over and overand its ok. Now replace the left glass with one twice as large, transfer the water, it won't go up to the top cuz the glass is larger, so we fill it with more water, a larger belt, now the larger glass is full again, now tranfer it back to the other glass, the glass overflows. In other words, a much larger Variator when it speeds down, the belt works its way to its smallest portion, same as a stock unit and the rear clutch has to pick up all that extra belt slack. This is cuz I was told that larger Vari can be installed, in theory Yes, now if its larger than the rear clutch pulley, I have a hard time seeing how that would work. I did not measure the rear dia of the clutch pulley.
itzmepete wrote:Happyman,
i was looking at the pic of the new vari on the left it apears the same but i did notice the metal part the ramp guide protrudes out of the rest of the casting compared to the stocker.. if indeed it utilizes it all its gonna have some gain?? wha ti do on tuning variators is get differant contra springs and rollers and clutch springs and have at it till i get it to do what i want. i want oit to stake off under full throttle at about 9200-9700 rpm and as it gains speed it will pick yup the rpm also till it tops out.. not sure how much rpm the molossi will spool but on my kymco its 10700. also aftert a 20 mile run at say 45 mph at 9000 rpm i hit a small town, i want it to shift down when i stop after its all hot i want it be in the bottom of the pully. that is why i run a 82 % contra spring on it and 2000 rpm clutch springs with 7.5 riollers and it pulls up hills real good,, in order to get it to perform the way i wanted it to was to get a new molosi tq driver. it has straight ramps instead of the bend in them like i see on the honda setup this creates a drop in rpm whern your spooling it on hard or affects the intown rideing acceleration also.. plus hills are easier as it shifts better too. i hjave a lot to learn bout these things but its fu when ya get the righjt combo.. i always marl the front pully with a magic marker on the top and take it for a run and see how far the belt travels in the pulley. if its not going up very far i will change rollers till i get it right. its gonna be interesting to se how these things do and if they run good with the parts supplied.
The stiffer clutch springs helps engine rev more, delays clutch engagement, kinda like a stall converter on an auto transmission so when it does engage, you shoot off faster, no arguement there. A stiffer clutch center springs keeps the rear pulley together longer so you are in low gear longer for better take off, no argument there either. If thats what you want to get, a faster launch, money well spent. My Kelli Preformance Variator did not come with a rear Plate but I have seen some on ebay and other scooter preformance website that do come with a rear ramp plate. If mine came with a few different rear plates and weights, I would buy into the preformance deal as it could be tuned, But it came with same 9 gram weights and same Vari dia housing. I feel Preformance and the promise of extra speed was wrong here.
From what I have just learned, you would have been better off cleaning your stock variator, Clean off all that used burned rubber, and the inside of the case, buying new 9 gram rollers, better yet an extensive assorted roller kit, and a new stock belt maybe a new rear ramp but for stock engines, I think the OEM is fine. I posted my variator findings on another thread on this forum. I should have posted it on this thread after all I started it and said a preformance variator was BS. So go here
http://www.hondaspree.net/phpBB2/viewto ... highlight=
But I will post it here as well as this is the Variator thread. So here goes
ok, New and old variator. Both connected together with the bushing inserted in the middle. Both same diameter which means same top speed. Both same angles. Inside where the rollers ride, the ramps look identical, it came with no rear plate. Yes tuning is key but its the rear ramps and weights that "tune" and both can be used on the stock Variator. I see nothing on this NEW Preformance variator that says it will preform better than a stock one.
Next pic shows clearance issues. Yes, I agree, if you can machine it and install a larger Variator then yes, more top speed but say goodby to the electric starter. Both had same distance from case. The preformance weights that came with the Variator were 9 grams, when compared to the Stock oem weights, they were about the same.
Last is a Final drive gear set I purchased from Taiwan, a mistake. Spline gears were not machined correctly, flat. Although it can be pressed fit by hand, I dared not use it as it did not have full teeth contact and would probably fail with use, especially with a big bore kit and the extra power. Lucky for me Daywot had a set of 8:44 to 1 gears, last one as VT was out also, that he sent me really fast!
Final word on Variator, if its not chewed up, clean it good, invest in a new belt and a roller weight set, an extensive one as these things go thru rollers, maybe a rear ramp or two. I think the stock Variator is fine. Extensive "Tuning" is only needed when you modify the engine and change its power output, power curve drastically such as a bore kit, carb etc. Oh, I purchased a Polini Kevlar belt. I did hear afterwards from someone knowledgable that although strong as *, they do tend to eat into the Variators surface more than a stock belt cuz the kevlar is so strong. Maybe I should have just gotten a regular belt but anyway, I guess a Polini will be fine for everyday riding and long life. If I dog it as in racing, I can see it eat the variator, mine will be a commuter so it won't be reved up and down as in racing. Just a thought, in any event, I can always buy a new "Preformance Variator for $45" if the belt does eat it up! Thats me poking fun now as this post stirred the pot a bit! But I think it will be many years before that happens the way I ride.
One last note, just something for thought, even IF you machined the case for a larger Variator, the Variator CAN NOT be larger than the rear clutch pulley or the belt will have no where to go when it speeds down and get slack. In an easier way to try and explain it. Think of the front variator and the rear pulley as two glasses of the same size. One is full of water, while the other is empty, water being the belt, now transfer the water back and forth over and overand its ok. Now replace the left glass with one twice as large, transfer the water, it won't go up to the top cuz the glass is larger, so we fill it with more water, a larger belt, now the larger glass is full again, now tranfer it back to the other glass, the glass overflows. In other words, a much larger Variator when it speeds down, the belt works its way to its smallest portion, same as a stock unit and the rear clutch has to pick up all that extra belt slack. This is cuz I was told that larger Vari can be installed, in theory Yes, now if its larger than the rear clutch pulley, I have a hard time seeing how that would work. I did not measure the rear dia of the clutch pulley.
ok dude, im not trying to call you out, or make you sound dumb, but how many have you built? turned? raced? how many parts have you been trough? you are so negative, and so smart with your air plane knowledge. No i cant build a plane, and i admit it. just like you don't know much about elites.The diff is i dont try to sound like i know what im talking about. Have you ever seen a elite run with the cover off? do you even understand that your not supposed to run an electric start 72cc? you know your gonna start a fire? Have you ever worked at a motorcycle shop? how about honda? or even a powersports store that specializes in mopeds?you have to understand, its a difference, and with those pics you prove one of the aspects on the variator. the steeper incline, the longer backplate guides. the belt does get to riding higher, it does get to the top, and the angle does change were and how it rides. the speed variators diff shape makes it smoother trough the power band, instead of like the stock one, it zipps on up, and thats why peoples mid range sucks. it is not a smooth transition. the speed variator is. don't complain about something you don't fully understand. you can have an opinion, but you cannot tell people IT DON'T WORK IT SUCKS ITS FACT! because you know no facts, you have nothing but opinions, you make hasty generalizations that something you don't fully understand is wrong. the inner workings of the elite may seem easy, simple, but just like making a pipe, you dont just weld two cones together and it works, its a specific length for the engine, its a specific angle for most power gain, it has the proper amount of backpressure, things don't just work the "same" because they look the "same". and just because no one else has the balls to defy you on here doesn't mean they don't think your dumb to say this. i have talked online to many individuals who know for a fact as i do the variator makes a diff. and with this made to this precision the littlest mm counts. And the gears you bought, truthfully you would have been fine, you think your 72cc is strong enough to break them? that it has the power to break them? try having 127cc engine, and running those, then they will break. unless you have over a 90cc, you wont beak them, this isn't aluminum. yes you wanted to be safer then sorry, i get that. the only thing that worries me about those gears is you could hand press them, these are held on by pressure, if you could hand press them that would have been really bad. so i give you power to complain there, i get that. but just like the variator, you make generalizations like what you say is law, you leave any room for opinion, you think that what you say is law, and if you don't think that, you sure as * act like it. understand the that human eye cant account for the subtle changes in geometry, hence why we have computers doing precision work, because no matter what the human does, in aspects of precision, a computer will always win. its sad yes, its bad that a machine has surpassed us yes. But as i have stated, you cannot make a generalization to that magnitude, its plain out wrong, stupid, and only and opinion.
Wow, what I say isn't final, it just is what it is, period. Buy a New Kelli, compare it with a new Honda OEM, check the angles, check the travel using the same ramp, and last I guarantee you that when both run using the same ramp and weights, both will preform identical.
I don't need to build 2 or hundred moped engines. A mechanic is a mechanic. In aviation we have mechanics that are parts changers. They know nothing about what is wrong or why they are changing it. Just remove and replace and even then some don't use common sence to know proper O ring installation, torquing sequence or even that some washers have to be installed a certain way on some bolts or it will cause stress cracks on the bolts tapered end by the head. In any event, to answer you
The Variator face IS the same angle as the stock one. I have an angle guage, I can take a pic and post. The pic angle may be off and the new one is so shiny that you really can't see the outline but the angle is correct and identical. Infact, the angle CAN'T be different than stock, let me rephrase that, it can be BUT it will do more harm than good. The angle on the variator face MUST match the angle on the Drive Face gear plate or it won't grab the belt evenly, will wear uneven and won't get 100% contact on the belt probably causing it to slip. If you change the angle on the Vari pully any noticable amount, you must also change the angle on the drive face plate. Maybe you can change it slightly, a hairs thickness, but I doubt it will make a difference.
I never said you were stupid or didn't know what you were saying. All you have to do is look at it. Both the Variator and Drive Face have the same ANGLE. If it didn't, it won't grab the belt evenly on both side, that is so obvious. If you changed the angle of one half of your alternator pulley, I will bet you the belt won't run straight on the pulley, cause uneven wear and slip under heavy load. Both sides must match the V on the belt. Simple. The V angle on a Variator DOES NOT CHANGE, its the postion of this V ANGLE on the pulley that changes. The angle can be low on the belt and the belt rides low, as soon as the RPM increases and the roller weights get hit with centrifugal force, they push against the rear slider palte and the inside of the variator moving this V angle upwards so the belt HAS to move upward to match it. One angle can't be different than the other. Common Sense people.
Second, yes , the new variator has the 3 rear plate guides slightly longer. I did install this variator and drive face and with my hand ran it back and forth its full travel. The rear slider plate never reached this extended area. If it did the rollers would pop out! I did the same with the stock Vari, travel was the same, no different. So I could grind them off or down and it would not make a difference.
Third, I never said the gears themselves would fail BUT the spline machined incorrectly on the new larger 17 tooth countershaft. Now to be really specific, the OEM (original) 13 tooth Countershaft, this shaft is replaced with a 17 tooth countershaft. The stock gear , a 42 tooth gear, that was removed from the old 13T countershaft is then slipped onto the new 17T countershaft, not pressed in as you incorrectly stated. The problem is not with the 17 teeth, its the spline machined on this 17T countershaft. They are flat as seen in my pic. The teeth cutout on the factory 42 tooth gear which is reused are v shaped, so it does not make 100% contact, more like 50%, only bites half way onto the V of the gears teeth. Now you have a larger engine, half as strong point in the gear set and you can see that is will be a matter of time before it fails. The 17 teeth or the new supplied 41 teeth gear won't fail, the spline will.
The gear that is pressed in is the gear that goes on the Final Gear and Final Gear shaft. The oem gear is a 45T (tooth) the new one is a 41 tooth so that coupled with the 17 tooth Counterbalance make for a 8:44 to 1 final drive. Nothing is wrong with that gear. It gets pressed off and a new one pressed on, period. The Ebay Seller, which now I will name so others don't waste their TIME or MONEY is AUTOTECH355, he has since pulled all his gears off for sale on ebay!
My point here is this AGAIN, everyone that manufactures aftermarket parts promises gains in speed or mpg. Part of the hype in selling you a part. Aftermarket parts is a big business. Now, maybe a Kelli Vari for a Yamaha Jog might be bigger than a stock one. For the Honda Eliet, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that a larger dia one will not fit unless you machine the case. This Kelli preformance Vari for my Honda does not live up to its claim. It is NO different than a stock, period. I want those with limited funds $$$$ to KNOW this. If your Variator is clean, and you want to "Tune it" get an extensive roller selection and a new rear ramp or two. Unless the Vari is LARGER, there is no speed gain and its all MARKETING BS.
If I spent $125 for this Vari, I would have sent it back as I would have felt stupid paying that much for nothing. If I kept it, I surely would not tell anyone I spent that much on a Vari, unless they new nothing about Vari's. The seller is a good guy, my old vari has a few small scuff, that I know I could have cleaned off with some fine sandpaper and spining my vari on my drill press. I kept the new Vari cuz I needed the rollers anyway and in a rush to put it back together. If I knew this BEFORE I ordered it, I wouldn NOT have ordered it. I would have spent less than the $45 I spent and purchased a roller set and new ramp guides.
Oh, yes , you are correct in what you said about a two stroke tuned pipe. Its very tricky to get it just right, very. Now on the Variator, at least in my case, a stock Honda OEM Versus a Kelli, it was a waste of money, NO difference. Other 2 stroke bikes I don't know. As for my starter catching fire? It starts the engine fine now. Cylinder is an exact replacement as the original but bigger bore. Would guess it can catch fire if overheated but engine turns over fine with a click or two from the starter so it shouldn't overhear more than a stock one. It can always be wrapped with heat guard as the Turbocharger on my car if its a big concern. If it was, Polini would have inserted a card advising of either this or removing the starter.
I don't need to build 2 or hundred moped engines. A mechanic is a mechanic. In aviation we have mechanics that are parts changers. They know nothing about what is wrong or why they are changing it. Just remove and replace and even then some don't use common sence to know proper O ring installation, torquing sequence or even that some washers have to be installed a certain way on some bolts or it will cause stress cracks on the bolts tapered end by the head. In any event, to answer you
The Variator face IS the same angle as the stock one. I have an angle guage, I can take a pic and post. The pic angle may be off and the new one is so shiny that you really can't see the outline but the angle is correct and identical. Infact, the angle CAN'T be different than stock, let me rephrase that, it can be BUT it will do more harm than good. The angle on the variator face MUST match the angle on the Drive Face gear plate or it won't grab the belt evenly, will wear uneven and won't get 100% contact on the belt probably causing it to slip. If you change the angle on the Vari pully any noticable amount, you must also change the angle on the drive face plate. Maybe you can change it slightly, a hairs thickness, but I doubt it will make a difference.
I never said you were stupid or didn't know what you were saying. All you have to do is look at it. Both the Variator and Drive Face have the same ANGLE. If it didn't, it won't grab the belt evenly on both side, that is so obvious. If you changed the angle of one half of your alternator pulley, I will bet you the belt won't run straight on the pulley, cause uneven wear and slip under heavy load. Both sides must match the V on the belt. Simple. The V angle on a Variator DOES NOT CHANGE, its the postion of this V ANGLE on the pulley that changes. The angle can be low on the belt and the belt rides low, as soon as the RPM increases and the roller weights get hit with centrifugal force, they push against the rear slider palte and the inside of the variator moving this V angle upwards so the belt HAS to move upward to match it. One angle can't be different than the other. Common Sense people.
Second, yes , the new variator has the 3 rear plate guides slightly longer. I did install this variator and drive face and with my hand ran it back and forth its full travel. The rear slider plate never reached this extended area. If it did the rollers would pop out! I did the same with the stock Vari, travel was the same, no different. So I could grind them off or down and it would not make a difference.
Third, I never said the gears themselves would fail BUT the spline machined incorrectly on the new larger 17 tooth countershaft. Now to be really specific, the OEM (original) 13 tooth Countershaft, this shaft is replaced with a 17 tooth countershaft. The stock gear , a 42 tooth gear, that was removed from the old 13T countershaft is then slipped onto the new 17T countershaft, not pressed in as you incorrectly stated. The problem is not with the 17 teeth, its the spline machined on this 17T countershaft. They are flat as seen in my pic. The teeth cutout on the factory 42 tooth gear which is reused are v shaped, so it does not make 100% contact, more like 50%, only bites half way onto the V of the gears teeth. Now you have a larger engine, half as strong point in the gear set and you can see that is will be a matter of time before it fails. The 17 teeth or the new supplied 41 teeth gear won't fail, the spline will.
The gear that is pressed in is the gear that goes on the Final Gear and Final Gear shaft. The oem gear is a 45T (tooth) the new one is a 41 tooth so that coupled with the 17 tooth Counterbalance make for a 8:44 to 1 final drive. Nothing is wrong with that gear. It gets pressed off and a new one pressed on, period. The Ebay Seller, which now I will name so others don't waste their TIME or MONEY is AUTOTECH355, he has since pulled all his gears off for sale on ebay!
My point here is this AGAIN, everyone that manufactures aftermarket parts promises gains in speed or mpg. Part of the hype in selling you a part. Aftermarket parts is a big business. Now, maybe a Kelli Vari for a Yamaha Jog might be bigger than a stock one. For the Honda Eliet, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that a larger dia one will not fit unless you machine the case. This Kelli preformance Vari for my Honda does not live up to its claim. It is NO different than a stock, period. I want those with limited funds $$$$ to KNOW this. If your Variator is clean, and you want to "Tune it" get an extensive roller selection and a new rear ramp or two. Unless the Vari is LARGER, there is no speed gain and its all MARKETING BS.
If I spent $125 for this Vari, I would have sent it back as I would have felt stupid paying that much for nothing. If I kept it, I surely would not tell anyone I spent that much on a Vari, unless they new nothing about Vari's. The seller is a good guy, my old vari has a few small scuff, that I know I could have cleaned off with some fine sandpaper and spining my vari on my drill press. I kept the new Vari cuz I needed the rollers anyway and in a rush to put it back together. If I knew this BEFORE I ordered it, I wouldn NOT have ordered it. I would have spent less than the $45 I spent and purchased a roller set and new ramp guides.
Oh, yes , you are correct in what you said about a two stroke tuned pipe. Its very tricky to get it just right, very. Now on the Variator, at least in my case, a stock Honda OEM Versus a Kelli, it was a waste of money, NO difference. Other 2 stroke bikes I don't know. As for my starter catching fire? It starts the engine fine now. Cylinder is an exact replacement as the original but bigger bore. Would guess it can catch fire if overheated but engine turns over fine with a click or two from the starter so it shouldn't overhear more than a stock one. It can always be wrapped with heat guard as the Turbocharger on my car if its a big concern. If it was, Polini would have inserted a card advising of either this or removing the starter.
Spree, why you getting your panties all ruffled up? I respect your opinion. I just KNOW your wrong, period. You can walk around thinking the sky is falling thats ok. Oh yeah, I wasn't the one that spent $125 for a Hi Preformance Variator! Knowing what I know now, that makes me smart. With all your years of tuning, rebuilding and racing, why haven't you figured out what I figured out withing 5 minutes of comparing them?
You never said where you went to school at.
Oh, I have a magnet that if placed around your fuel line will give your scoot 20 more MPG, $45 if your interested, free shipping as well. Let me know. Also have a special carburator that gets 150 mgp, but you can't let detroit get their hands on it!
Oh yeah, You joined this forum in what 1973?
Joined: 23 Jul 1973
Posts: 3872
Location: Troy michigan
Man, thats a long time ago, before Elites, sprees and even the internet. Who is portraying themselves as what?
You never said where you went to school at.
Oh, I have a magnet that if placed around your fuel line will give your scoot 20 more MPG, $45 if your interested, free shipping as well. Let me know. Also have a special carburator that gets 150 mgp, but you can't let detroit get their hands on it!
Oh yeah, You joined this forum in what 1973?
Joined: 23 Jul 1973
Posts: 3872
Location: Troy michigan
Man, thats a long time ago, before Elites, sprees and even the internet. Who is portraying themselves as what?
I really hate to get into crap like this, because there is no since in fighting on the internet. But i got to step in and say something.itzmepete wrote:Spree, why you getting your panties all ruffled up? I respect your opinion. I just KNOW your wrong, period. You can walk around thinking the sky is falling thats ok. Oh yeah, I wasn't the one that spent $125 for a Hi Preformance Variator! Knowing what I know now, that makes me smart. With all your years of tuning, rebuilding and racing, why haven't you figured out what I figured out withing 5 minutes of comparing them?
MySpree is god when it comes to scooters. I talk to him all the time, he has helped me out so much with almost everything. Im not saying that because hes right some of the time he is right by default. But when it comes to this stuff, he knows what he is talking about.
* does that matter?itzmepete wrote: You never said where you went to school at.
Just because you go to some school doesn't mean that by default your smart. As long as some one knows what they are talking about to the point they can fully explain the smallest detail any almost any part. Then * does school matter????
lol, im not even going to say anything on this one. Its to d*** easy.itzmepete wrote: Oh, I have a magnet that if placed around your fuel line will give your scoot 20 more MPG, $45 if your interested, free shipping as well. Let me know. Also have a special carburator that gets 150 mgp, but you can't let detroit get their hands on it!
The site was made in 2005. At one point in time the site changed servers or something along that line. All the original members joined date jumped back to 1973 for some reason.itzmepete wrote: Oh yeah, You joined this forum in what 1973?
Joined: 23 Jul 1973
Posts: 3872
Location: Troy michigan
Man, thats a long time ago, before Elites, sprees and even the internet. Who is portraying themselves as what?
Its not something he put up there. there is no way to change that. Even admins cant.
"Its not what you ride, its that you ride"
1996--------Honda Elite S-
1991--------Tomos Targa-
And a Bunch of other bikes.
1996--------Honda Elite S-
1991--------Tomos Targa-
And a Bunch of other bikes.