What Engine Did You SA? (Engine Code Clarification)
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- Wheelman-111
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What Engine Did You SA? (Engine Code Clarification)
Greetings:
For the benefit of Newbies, in whose ranks the Author so recently belonged, I think we should re-think calling pre-'94s "SE50s". The SE 50 was a 1987-only MODEL designation, not an engine code. Then in 1988 Honda-san started calling the Elite an SA50, a name which stuck on past the Great Scoosmic Upheaval in 1994. .
You may have an SA50 - say a 1989 Elite - which has an engine we call SE50 around here. See the problem?
1985-1987 Aero }
1987 ELITE SE50 }
1988-1993 SA 50 } ALL = AF05 E
1994-2001 ELITE SA50 = AF16 E
Between the SE/05 and the SA/16, few/none of the critical parts like crankshafts, cylinders and pistons interchange. The transmission gears likewise differ significantly - you can still find a few for the SE/05 still but choice seems limited to 16/32 for a 7.83:1 ratio. The case port design is different - actually smaller on the 16s. However variators, belts and clutches interchange freely and without modification. So too with rear wheels - all the way to the 2002 Metropolitan.
BUT WAIT THERE"S MORE!: As if that wasn't confusing enough, I have been told that lots of other models including dearly beloved Sprees and their descendant SB50 Elite "E" models also have the AF 05E code stamped on their monogeared tranny cases. What were they thinking?
Proposed New Nomenclature:
Sprees and SB50 Elite "E": NQ/05
Aeros, SE50, and SA50s, 1988 through 1993: SE/05
SA50s and their cousins 1994-later: SA/16
Newbies will thank you.
For the benefit of Newbies, in whose ranks the Author so recently belonged, I think we should re-think calling pre-'94s "SE50s". The SE 50 was a 1987-only MODEL designation, not an engine code. Then in 1988 Honda-san started calling the Elite an SA50, a name which stuck on past the Great Scoosmic Upheaval in 1994. .
You may have an SA50 - say a 1989 Elite - which has an engine we call SE50 around here. See the problem?
1985-1987 Aero }
1987 ELITE SE50 }
1988-1993 SA 50 } ALL = AF05 E
1994-2001 ELITE SA50 = AF16 E
Between the SE/05 and the SA/16, few/none of the critical parts like crankshafts, cylinders and pistons interchange. The transmission gears likewise differ significantly - you can still find a few for the SE/05 still but choice seems limited to 16/32 for a 7.83:1 ratio. The case port design is different - actually smaller on the 16s. However variators, belts and clutches interchange freely and without modification. So too with rear wheels - all the way to the 2002 Metropolitan.
BUT WAIT THERE"S MORE!: As if that wasn't confusing enough, I have been told that lots of other models including dearly beloved Sprees and their descendant SB50 Elite "E" models also have the AF 05E code stamped on their monogeared tranny cases. What were they thinking?
Proposed New Nomenclature:
Sprees and SB50 Elite "E": NQ/05
Aeros, SE50, and SA50s, 1988 through 1993: SE/05
SA50s and their cousins 1994-later: SA/16
Newbies will thank you.
Last edited by Wheelman-111 on Thu Apr 30, 2009 3:41 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Wheelman-111
Most of my money is spent on scooterparts. The rest is just wasted.
"ISO": '03 Vespa ET4 Malossi187 74MPH
Flash 9: 2001 Elite SR Contesta 72 ZX Tran, 9:1 Gears, Stock Airbox/Carb/Pipe 58.8 MPH
Punkin: 2010 Vespa/Malossi S78, 61MPH
Most of my money is spent on scooterparts. The rest is just wasted.
"ISO": '03 Vespa ET4 Malossi187 74MPH
Flash 9: 2001 Elite SR Contesta 72 ZX Tran, 9:1 Gears, Stock Airbox/Carb/Pipe 58.8 MPH
Punkin: 2010 Vespa/Malossi S78, 61MPH
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BUT WAIT THERE'S MORE!
Greetings:
See edit in first post. Turns out lots of non-"SE-50" generation bikes also have the AF 05E stamped on their transmission covers. Sprees and SB50s f'rinstance. What to do?
I vote we call them "SE/05" to distinguish the Aero/Elite engines from the unvariated Sprees that evidently share the AF 05 E code. It also continues a link to the way many still think of this generation of engines.
We can call the Spree/SB engines "NQ/05" so Spreeites can know what pertains to their powerplants.
See edit in first post. Turns out lots of non-"SE-50" generation bikes also have the AF 05E stamped on their transmission covers. Sprees and SB50s f'rinstance. What to do?
I vote we call them "SE/05" to distinguish the Aero/Elite engines from the unvariated Sprees that evidently share the AF 05 E code. It also continues a link to the way many still think of this generation of engines.
We can call the Spree/SB engines "NQ/05" so Spreeites can know what pertains to their powerplants.
Wheelman-111
Most of my money is spent on scooterparts. The rest is just wasted.
"ISO": '03 Vespa ET4 Malossi187 74MPH
Flash 9: 2001 Elite SR Contesta 72 ZX Tran, 9:1 Gears, Stock Airbox/Carb/Pipe 58.8 MPH
Punkin: 2010 Vespa/Malossi S78, 61MPH
Most of my money is spent on scooterparts. The rest is just wasted.
"ISO": '03 Vespa ET4 Malossi187 74MPH
Flash 9: 2001 Elite SR Contesta 72 ZX Tran, 9:1 Gears, Stock Airbox/Carb/Pipe 58.8 MPH
Punkin: 2010 Vespa/Malossi S78, 61MPH
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Hey, I got one of those, bit the dust two days after I bought it. Finding right parts is not easy as I discover that not all AF05E's are the same. My "E" has an AF05E, and Patrick at daywot says his SE50 kit is different than either one.PimpinSpree wrote:this strikes home, as i refer to my motor as an se50 for simplification, but it was really off of an 88 sa50 lx i believe.
So if the sticky is going to work, it will take a lot of clarification and a Philadelphia Lawyer.
I feel like I'm in that last category: "6. Let the Newbies l'arn the hard way." I'll know more in a few days when I get the Polini kit.
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- Wheelman-111
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Greetings:
Patrick's Polini Piston should work fine in your '88 SA50 with the SE/05 engine. It's baffling to me why Honda-san's engine code is the same on the Sprees and "Es". Maybe just the tranny case cover is the same...
Still you'd think there are other numbers available... One, Two, Three, Four... Maybe 5 was Honda-san's lucky number.
Good luck with the Polini install. I think you're gonna like it.
Patrick's Polini Piston should work fine in your '88 SA50 with the SE/05 engine. It's baffling to me why Honda-san's engine code is the same on the Sprees and "Es". Maybe just the tranny case cover is the same...
Still you'd think there are other numbers available... One, Two, Three, Four... Maybe 5 was Honda-san's lucky number.
Good luck with the Polini install. I think you're gonna like it.
Wheelman-111
Most of my money is spent on scooterparts. The rest is just wasted.
"ISO": '03 Vespa ET4 Malossi187 74MPH
Flash 9: 2001 Elite SR Contesta 72 ZX Tran, 9:1 Gears, Stock Airbox/Carb/Pipe 58.8 MPH
Punkin: 2010 Vespa/Malossi S78, 61MPH
Most of my money is spent on scooterparts. The rest is just wasted.
"ISO": '03 Vespa ET4 Malossi187 74MPH
Flash 9: 2001 Elite SR Contesta 72 ZX Tran, 9:1 Gears, Stock Airbox/Carb/Pipe 58.8 MPH
Punkin: 2010 Vespa/Malossi S78, 61MPH
Patrick sent me some photos showing the difference between the Polini gasket metal base gasket and the Honda fabric gasket. I will have to trim the gasket so as to not restrict the fuel ports. Should be able to do it with a Dremel, being careful.Wheelman-111 wrote:Greetings:
Patrick's Polini Piston should work fine in your '88 SA50 with the SE/05 engine...
I'm sure there should be some power increase, not sure how much. How much speed increase should I expect if any... or just power?
Back to the thread, I think a sticky would be good to help sort things out, but it should also reflect the difference in the AF05E's. It's confusing to have two scoots with AF05E motors and be told they are not the same.
Last edited by Lunytune on Fri May 01, 2009 5:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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- wikked_spree57
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This is a sometimes confusing and touchy subject here. However this IS a good idea. It will take some getting used to, since I'm used to calling the SE/05 the SE50,etc.
I'll give it a whirl.
I'll give it a whirl.
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1983 Yamaha XC 180 - Bought barn fresh in mint condition and 254 miles. Best bike I ever owned
1983 Yamaha XC 180 - Bought barn fresh in mint condition and 254 miles. Best bike I ever owned
- Wheelman-111
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Question From May 1
Greetings:
My Polini bore went on at the same time as my first Keli variator. It transformed the bike from an obstacle to traffic to one that could go with the flow of urban surface streets.
The top speed gain was not as dramatic as the acceleration gained. Perhaps 8MPH = 45. This is because despite greater power higher up in the RPM range, the limiting factor was still the 8500 RPM ceiling and the short legs due to the 11:1 stock gearing.
A larger rear tire would help in a cost-effective way, without killing take-off. Depending on brand, a 90/90 (safer option) or a 3.50" may fit. Gears are available but becoming scarce even in Holland and Germany. Search for Malossi 67-6458 and expect to pay $100 with shipping. The only kits I've found comprise a clutch shaft and a pressed-on unsplined countershaft gear having 16 and 32 teeth respectively. A real press is required to install onto the countershaft. The clutch shaft pops out with a threaded puller.
The result is a 7.83:1 overall ratio. This makes the 0-15MPH painfully sluggish, but it picks up after that to an acceleration rate comparable to stock and keeps going up to about 55 in practice. My very best top speed was not GPS-verified, included a stiff tailwind. Buried the needle below the "E" on the gauge. I estimate it was 61 based on the readings I did verify with GPS and the position of the speedometer needle at 57.8 best true recorded. It'll do 55 almost anywhere.
My Polini bore went on at the same time as my first Keli variator. It transformed the bike from an obstacle to traffic to one that could go with the flow of urban surface streets.
The top speed gain was not as dramatic as the acceleration gained. Perhaps 8MPH = 45. This is because despite greater power higher up in the RPM range, the limiting factor was still the 8500 RPM ceiling and the short legs due to the 11:1 stock gearing.
A larger rear tire would help in a cost-effective way, without killing take-off. Depending on brand, a 90/90 (safer option) or a 3.50" may fit. Gears are available but becoming scarce even in Holland and Germany. Search for Malossi 67-6458 and expect to pay $100 with shipping. The only kits I've found comprise a clutch shaft and a pressed-on unsplined countershaft gear having 16 and 32 teeth respectively. A real press is required to install onto the countershaft. The clutch shaft pops out with a threaded puller.
The result is a 7.83:1 overall ratio. This makes the 0-15MPH painfully sluggish, but it picks up after that to an acceleration rate comparable to stock and keeps going up to about 55 in practice. My very best top speed was not GPS-verified, included a stiff tailwind. Buried the needle below the "E" on the gauge. I estimate it was 61 based on the readings I did verify with GPS and the position of the speedometer needle at 57.8 best true recorded. It'll do 55 almost anywhere.
Wheelman-111
Most of my money is spent on scooterparts. The rest is just wasted.
"ISO": '03 Vespa ET4 Malossi187 74MPH
Flash 9: 2001 Elite SR Contesta 72 ZX Tran, 9:1 Gears, Stock Airbox/Carb/Pipe 58.8 MPH
Punkin: 2010 Vespa/Malossi S78, 61MPH
Most of my money is spent on scooterparts. The rest is just wasted.
"ISO": '03 Vespa ET4 Malossi187 74MPH
Flash 9: 2001 Elite SR Contesta 72 ZX Tran, 9:1 Gears, Stock Airbox/Carb/Pipe 58.8 MPH
Punkin: 2010 Vespa/Malossi S78, 61MPH
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One Key 05/16 Difference
Greetings:
I wondered why Honda-san deprived us of the multitude of aftermarket intake and carb options available for the AF16 and later models. The manifold design for the AF05E doesn't completely cover the case port opening. Turns out that decision was necessary:
When Honda increased the cylinder stud spacing (Despite the fact that the stock 16 uses a smaller piston and a longer stroke to make up the difference...) There wasn't room for the extra "tongue" seen adjacent to the cylinder base. That thick plate beneath the CT manifold on mine is the adaptor from skillful Scooterwerx.
We have seen how the gearcase design changed, making the many ratio options available for the 16 generation off-limits to 05 owners without access to full machine shop services. I have no way to compare the two engines side-by-side (hint-hint... ) but I"ve also begun to suspect that there are other minor but significant differences in things like crank length. At least one aftermarket variator (Polini with 15-degree ramp plate...) is too "thick" to be mounted safely on my '87 crankshaft. The outside drive face pulley just barely engages the splines if the boss that provides correct spacing for the belt is used.
Other than that, clutches, variators, rear wheel hub dimensions are the same. Now if only I could figure out why Honda-san decided to tilt the exhaust flange... Not many pipes fit either.
Engine code may be different for the '83-'84 Aeros. It's my understanding that the 40/40 bore and stroke are unique to these models.
I wondered why Honda-san deprived us of the multitude of aftermarket intake and carb options available for the AF16 and later models. The manifold design for the AF05E doesn't completely cover the case port opening. Turns out that decision was necessary:
When Honda increased the cylinder stud spacing (Despite the fact that the stock 16 uses a smaller piston and a longer stroke to make up the difference...) There wasn't room for the extra "tongue" seen adjacent to the cylinder base. That thick plate beneath the CT manifold on mine is the adaptor from skillful Scooterwerx.
We have seen how the gearcase design changed, making the many ratio options available for the 16 generation off-limits to 05 owners without access to full machine shop services. I have no way to compare the two engines side-by-side (hint-hint... ) but I"ve also begun to suspect that there are other minor but significant differences in things like crank length. At least one aftermarket variator (Polini with 15-degree ramp plate...) is too "thick" to be mounted safely on my '87 crankshaft. The outside drive face pulley just barely engages the splines if the boss that provides correct spacing for the belt is used.
Other than that, clutches, variators, rear wheel hub dimensions are the same. Now if only I could figure out why Honda-san decided to tilt the exhaust flange... Not many pipes fit either.
Engine code may be different for the '83-'84 Aeros. It's my understanding that the 40/40 bore and stroke are unique to these models.
Wheelman-111
Most of my money is spent on scooterparts. The rest is just wasted.
"ISO": '03 Vespa ET4 Malossi187 74MPH
Flash 9: 2001 Elite SR Contesta 72 ZX Tran, 9:1 Gears, Stock Airbox/Carb/Pipe 58.8 MPH
Punkin: 2010 Vespa/Malossi S78, 61MPH
Most of my money is spent on scooterparts. The rest is just wasted.
"ISO": '03 Vespa ET4 Malossi187 74MPH
Flash 9: 2001 Elite SR Contesta 72 ZX Tran, 9:1 Gears, Stock Airbox/Carb/Pipe 58.8 MPH
Punkin: 2010 Vespa/Malossi S78, 61MPH